# With friends like McDermott and Bonior, the Democrats don't need any enemies. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 25, 2002, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-mcdermott-and-bonior-the-democrats-dont-need-any-enemies/129663 "2002-09-25T20:06:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-mcdermott-and-bonior-the-democrats-dont-need-any-enemies/129663/1 "2002-09-25T20:06:25Z")
Acording to [CNN](http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/09/25/democrats.iraq.trip/index.html) > [@](#): > > Two Democratic critics of U.S. military action against Iraq will leave Thursday for a trip to Baghdad, where they say they will make a personal appeal to Iraqi officials to allow unfettered access to U.N. weapons inspectors in order to avoid a potential war. > > Rep. David Bonior, D-Michigan, formerly the House minority whip, and Rep. Jim McDermott, D-Washington, will travel with a delegation of humanitarian workers and others. In principle, this visit shows negotiating weakness. Tarik Aziz should be coming here to appeal for our consideration, not the reverse. The visit also tends to undermine the President’s stated position that there is nothing to negotiate. In fact I don’t think the visit will do much harm, because I see little or no chance that Saddam will accept Bush’s demands. I think the attack will begin this fall or winter. However, ISTM this visit is\* terrible\* from a political POV. At best, these people come across as wimps or wishful thinkers to most Americans. At worst, they could be demonized as _“soft on Saddamism.”_ It’s like putting a _Kick Me!_ sign on their backs. Furthermore, their visit will reflect to some degree on the Democratic Party. Furthermore, the visit contradicts the Democrats’ sound strategy of making little fuss over the war resolution, so as to focus the campaign more on domestic issues. As a Republican, I hope my party does well in the elections, but Bonior and McDermott are making it just too easy. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-mcdermott-and-bonior-the-democrats-dont-need-any-enemies/129663/2 "2002-09-25T20:39:05Z")
Ah, so you’re salivating at how easy it will be (for your party) to dishonestly portray their trip? ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-mcdermott-and-bonior-the-democrats-dont-need-any-enemies/129663/3 "2002-09-25T21:20:33Z")
This visit is _perfect_ from a political point of view. “All politics is local”. I’m such a cynic. 1. Rep. Jim McDermott, D-Washington, is running for reelection this November. [http://www.mcdermottforcongress.com/](http://www.mcdermottforcongress.com/) 2. Rep. David Bonior, D-Michigan, had his eyes on the Michigan governor’s seat but didn’t make it past the Democratic primary. Dave is doing his GOP-bashing bit for party solidarity, not to mention media exposure. [http://www.hillnews.com/081402/bonior.shtm](http://www.hillnews.com/081402/bonior.shtm) > [@](#): > > AUGUST 14 , 2002 > > Bonior urged to stay in public life > By Peter Brand > > His defeat in last week’s Michigan Democratic gubernatorial primary may have put a temporary hold on Rep. David Bonior’s political career. But those who know the former Democratic whip don’t expect to see him remain off the public radar for long. > > “I think he should stay in the public arena,” said Rep. Sander Levin (D-Mich.), a close friend of Bonior, who was the longest serving whip in House history. “I think he has a unique capacity for fighting for a cause.” Their visit will indeed reflect on the Democratic Party. They’re both scoring major points for being sensible people, in direct opposition to GW’s hellbent rush towards War with a Capital W. > [@](#): > > Neither congressmen supports the Bush administration’s proposed congressional resolution authorizing military action against Iraq. > > “The biggest mistake we will make is trying to do this alone,” McDermott said, adding that the wiser course in his view is to see first what can be achieved through the United Nations. Hard to see how the voters back home can quibble with this. And as for Tarik Aziz, geez, nobody on this trip gives a rat’s derriere about _him_. Nobody really wants to see him. This is an American Politics election-year junket, nothing more. And I bet you a nickel Tarik Aziz knows it, too (he didn’t get where he is by being stupid) and will place exactly as much value on this visit as is intended to be placed–in a word, zip. “See the American politicians and their humanitarian friends stage their photo opportunities in pleas for votes and funding…” I bet he somehow doesn’t manage to find time to meet with them. > [@](#): > > While in Iraq, the congressmen will also visit hospitals, food distribution sites and other similar locations to assess the humanitarian situation of the Iraqi citizens. I bet they even manage to be photographed kissing a couple of babies, too. And if that’s just all _too_ unbearably cynical, consider the alternate possibility that they’re doing it out of a genuine wish to avoid war. They’re both veterans, for one thing, and McDermott’s a doctor. [http://www.fra.org/leg-center-2/106th-congress/106-cong-mil-lst.html](http://www.fra.org/leg-center-2/106th-congress/106-cong-mil-lst.html) > [@](#): > > David E. Bonior (D-Mich.) Air Force 1968-72 Staff Sgt. > Jim McDermott (D-Wash.) Navy Medical Corps 1968-70 Lt. Cmdr. [http://davidbonior.house.gov/biography.htm](http://davidbonior.house.gov/biography.htm) [http://www.house.gov/mcdermott/bio.htm](http://www.house.gov/mcdermott/bio.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Tradnor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cab0a1/32.png) [@Tradnor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tradnor)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-mcdermott-and-bonior-the-democrats-dont-need-any-enemies/129663/4 "2002-09-26T09:22:57Z")
Jim McDermott is from the most liberal district in Washington state. He received 77 percent of the vote in the primary last week. (That was against a Republican challenger, since WA has a blanket primary.) A Republican hasn’t held that seat since 1977, and then only for a year. The GOP didn’t even field a candidate for it in the last two elections. You may recall an incident of questionable propriety involving McDermott a few years ago, in which he leaked transcripts of a cell phone conversation between then-Speaker Newt Gingrich and other Republicans in an effort to embarrass them, while Gingrich was under investigation by the House Ethics Committee on which McDermott was a ranking member. Nobody in his district cared. McDermott can do whatever he wants and comfortably keep his seat for as long as he wants it. This will reflect to some extent on the Democratic party as a whole, but surely Bush reflects moreso on the Republican party. Which of the two is a positive reflection, of course, depends on the individual. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-mcdermott-and-bonior-the-democrats-dont-need-any-enemies/129663/5 "2002-09-26T19:02:02Z")
I fail to see what you are getting upset about, december. If this were all happening within the Administration then Sam Stone would be here explaining that this was a “good cop, bad cop” thing and was evidence of how fucking brilliant the Bush foreign policy team is. I am also interested to know that talking to people is now considered a sign of weakness. Better to bomb first and sort it all out later I suppose? As for the political angle, have you entired the possibility, december, that perhaps they aren’t doing this for political reasons at all but out of genuine concern for the lives of the Iraqis, Americans, and others that hang in the balance? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-mcdermott-and-bonior-the-democrats-dont-need-any-enemies/129663/6 "2002-09-26T19:11:08Z")
Yeesh, I think it sounds like a GOOD thing. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-mcdermott-and-bonior-the-democrats-dont-need-any-enemies/129663/7 "2002-09-26T19:50:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jshore \* If this were all happening within the Administration then Sam Stone would be here explaining that this was a “good cop, bad cop” thing and was evidence of how fucking brilliant the Bush foreign policy team is. Maybe so. But, this is being done outside the Administration. Individual Congressmen don’t set foreign policy. Furthermore, this is clearly not part of a coordinated GCBC plan. Bush doesn’t want Iraq to agree to inspections; he wants war. > [@](#): > > I am also interested to know that talking to people is now considered a sign of weakness. Negotiation involves various steps designed to smoke out how eager the other party is for a deal. Taking the trouble to go to Iraq tends to indicate that the US is willing to bargain. In this case, I don’t think Bush _is_ willing to bargain. This visit might encourage Saddam to hold out for better terms than he can get from Bush. In that case, the visit might have the perverse impact of detering a peaceful resolution. > [@](#): > > As for the political angle, have you entired the possibility, december, that perhaps they aren’t doing this for political reasons at all but out of genuine concern for the lives of the Iraqis, Americans, and others that hang in the balance? That’s an excellent point. **Tradnor** and **DDG** , you make a good point. This visit may well be popular in their home districts. **Guinastasia** , you may be right that this visit is a good thing, but I do not believe the majority of Americans will see it that way. > [@](#): > > **Apos** > Ah, so you’re salivating at how easy it will be (for your party) to dishonestly portray their trip? Politics ain’t bean bag. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-mcdermott-and-bonior-the-democrats-dont-need-any-enemies/129663/8 "2002-09-26T21:12:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > Bush doesn’t want Iraq to agree to inspections; he wants war. Well, at least we’ll give you points for honesty here, december! > [@](#): > > In that case, the visit might have the perverse impact of detering a peaceful resolution. But, I don’t think the chances for peaceful resolution are very good if at least one of the two parties is deadset against such a resolution, as you seem to believe. (And, if the visit decreases the chances of a peaceful resolution, can it be said that they are then helping Bush in his quest?!?) ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-mcdermott-and-bonior-the-democrats-dont-need-any-enemies/129663/9 "2002-09-26T21:46:01Z")
december, familiar with the fable of the wolf and the sheep? The sheep knew that he was doomed, but he made sure that the wolf had no reason to attack him, other than the fact that he’s a wolf. Iraq wants to expose the US as that wolf, and to portray themselves as sheep. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-mcdermott-and-bonior-the-democrats-dont-need-any-enemies/129663/10 "2002-09-26T21:47:35Z")
I meant the lamb. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-mcdermott-and-bonior-the-democrats-dont-need-any-enemies/129663/11 "2002-09-26T21:48:16Z")
I meant “the lamb”. ---
**Author:** ![Dumbguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dumbguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dumbguy)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-mcdermott-and-bonior-the-democrats-dont-need-any-enemies/129663/12 "2002-09-26T22:40:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*…you may be right that this visit is a good thing, but I do not believe the majority of Americans will see it that way. \*\* Heaven forbid a politician would try to do the right thing instead of worrying about what Billy Fresno thinks. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2002, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-mcdermott-and-bonior-the-democrats-dont-need-any-enemies/129663/13 "2002-09-27T00:30:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dumbguy \* > \*\*Heaven forbid a politician would try to do the right thing instead of worrying about what Billy Fresno thinks. \*\* Or what **december** thinks, for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2002, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-mcdermott-and-bonior-the-democrats-dont-need-any-enemies/129663/14 "2002-09-27T16:51:57Z")
Lessee: if Saddam gives us genuinely unfettered inspections at the Democrats’ request, then the only points of contention will be under what circumstances we have the right to unilaterally effect regime change (1) on the basis of that regime’s treatment of its own people, and (2) on the basis of that regime’s likelihood of causing trouble in the indefinite future. If that’s the difference between the Democrats and the Republicans on Iraq, I’m happy to side with the Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2002, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-mcdermott-and-bonior-the-democrats-dont-need-any-enemies/129663/15 "2002-09-29T19:07:27Z")
Bonior and McDermott were on This Week with George Stephanopolous. According to some viewers they were harming the US. Any viewer who reacted that way will likely blame the Democrats to some degree. By going on nationwide TV they have converted a step that may have been locally useful to something nationally harmful – that is harmful to their party. Some quotes from the link > [@](#): > > A seemingly incredulous Stephanopolous heard McDermott claim that the President was misleading the world and that he should take the Iraqis’ word at face value… > > George Will called the McDermott-Bonior comments, “The most disgraceful appearance in my lifetime.” **ABC’s Michele Martin just shook her head, noting, “This is why the Democrats are having such a hard time.”…** (Note that her comment supports the OP) > > In what they had to say, they couldn’t have been more damaging to the United States, or acted more like Iraqi sycophants, had they been paid agents of Saddam Hussein himself. Incidentally, it seems from these comments that Bonior and McDermott were _not_ repeating the message of George Bush in Iraq. One has the impression that they were carrying Saddam Huussein’s message back to George Bush, rather than the reverse. If any of you actually saw this interview, I’d be interested to know your reation. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2002, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-mcdermott-and-bonior-the-democrats-dont-need-any-enemies/129663/16 "2002-09-29T23:22:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Some quotes from the link No link. > [@](#): > > If any of you actually saw this interview, I’d be interested to know your reation. So, you didn’t see the show yourself? You’re just quoting somebody else’s opinion of it? Somebody unknown? \<\< long silence \>\> We have only the word of your mystery link that George Stephanopolos was “seemingly incredulous”, and the word “seemingly” means “subjective opinion” anyway. So, so far, the only people who agree with the OP that McDermott and Bonior are hurting the Democratic Party are the following persons who were on a Sunday morning talk show on ABC: [ol] [li]George Will, conservative columnist, whose [September 16 column](http://www.townhall.com/columnists/georgewill/gw20020916.shtml) says:[/li] > [@](#): > > It took the terrorist attacks to galvanize the Bush administration. But even without the attacks it would have been justified in preparing, as Tuesday’s Los Angeles Times reported, to implement the policy Bush foreshadowed as a candidate. [li]Michele Martin, who works for ABC and who was evidently stuck with the job of appearing on _This Week_. She is apparently such a media nonentity that Google has absolutely nothing at all on her by way of “profile” or “bio”. Her politics are unknown, but then, she’s not being paid to make sensible, pithy political commentary–she’s being paid to sit there and be the Token Female Correspondent. She doesn’t even get a mention on the _This Week_ website blurb.[/li] [http://abcnews.go.com/Sections/ThisWeek/](http://abcnews.go.com/Sections/ThisWeek/) > [@](#): > > Coming Up on This Week Sunday, Sept. 29: > > Is the debate over Iraq becoming politicized? George Stephanopoulos talks to Senate Minority Whip Don Nickles, R-Okla., and Reps. Jim McDermott, D- Wash., and David Bonior, D-Mich. > > Plus, financier George Soros and Delta Airlines CEO Leo Mullin discuss the economic effects of war. > > And, Fareed Zakaria, Newsweek’s international editor, joins the roundtable. [li]An unknown commentator, the source of your mystery link.[/li][/ol] Well, gee, this debate’s over, I guess. If a conservative columnist, a media personality, and a mysterious commentator (“Come in, Mystery Guest, and sign in please…”) tell me that McDermott and Bonior are no better than agents for Saddam Hussein, then, hey, I’m convinced. :rolleyes: Question: There are supposed to be four panelists, aren’t there? Who was the fourth panelist, and what was his/her opinion? Or do you not know, not having watched the show yourself, and your mysterious commentator not being interested in discussing what s/he said? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-mcdermott-and-bonior-the-democrats-dont-need-any-enemies/129663/17 "2002-09-30T02:28:58Z")
‘Mysterious commentator’? The fact that you can’t find the bio of an ABC correspondent is your rebuttal to december’s article? I saw the show this morning. It went down approximately the way December’s link says it did. There wasn’t a panelist on the show that thought those two men were reasonable. Stephanopolous looked somewhat taken aback by their comments. Fareed Zakaria of Newsweek said something negative about them. Will said it was the most disgraceful performance by a congressman in his lifetime. This stuff is going to come back and sting the Democrats. Look, let’s be clear about what was going on here: The Democrats are afraid to oppose Bush, because they know that the American people are on his side. But they also don’t want Bush to look like he’s got all the answers. So two ‘safe’ Democrats became the point men to test the waters. Bonior can’t run again, and McDermott is in about the safest district of any Democrat. So the Democrats thought that these two could do the dirty work of painting Bush in a bad light before the election. My prediction is that this will backfire horribly. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-mcdermott-and-bonior-the-democrats-dont-need-any-enemies/129663/18 "2002-09-30T02:40:35Z")
Oh, in case it wasn’t clear in my post, Fareed Zakaria was the 4th panellist. He’s no conservative. He is an acclaimed columnist for Newsweek, and the editor of Newsweek international. He has a Ph.D from Harvard in International Relations, and writes for the New York Times and The New Republic, among other publications. He is strongly in favor of Bush’s policy towards Iraq, and he also thought Bonier and McDermott were wrong, although to be honest I can’t remember exactly what he said about it. I do remember that the whole panel reacted negatively to the interview. I also find it interesting that you of all people would assume that Michele Martin was just a ‘token female’, and without knowing her you assume that she’s not qualified to speak. Isn’t that a little…sexist? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-mcdermott-and-bonior-the-democrats-dont-need-any-enemies/129663/19 "2002-09-30T11:12:05Z")
Duck Duck Goose wrote: > [@](#): > > No link. Maybe you have to tweak a setting in Explorer or something. I had no problem with the link. > [@](#): > > Well, gee, this debate’s over, I guess. If a conservative columnist, a media personality, and a mysterious commentator (“Come in, Mystery Guest, and sign in please…”) tell me that McDermott and Bonior are no better than agents for Saddam Hussein, then, hey, I’m convinced. Fox and Friends were also critical this morning. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-mcdermott-and-bonior-the-democrats-dont-need-any-enemies/129663/20 "2002-09-30T19:25:07Z")
Not five minutes ago I see a Republican congressman (who I dont recognize) on Faux News pointing to the “35 kg of weapons grade uranium on its way to Iraq”. Incredible. And, **Sam** : > [@](#): > > The Democrats are afraid to oppose Bush, because they know that the American people are on his side. Are we indeed? That’s news to this American people. Last I heard, polls were showing that most Americans _opposed_ (as in, against) giving Fearless Leader his blank check for unilateral action. Most of the Dumbocrats are indeed craven and spineless. But they are students of history as well, and history shows that an administration that can claim to be “wartime” gets enormous support. We fall for it every time. Without fail. Weapons of Mass Distraction. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-mcdermott-and-bonior-the-democrats-dont-need-any-enemies/129663.md?page=2)