# With Friends like the S. Baptists, Gays Need No Enemies **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 18, 2003, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694 "2003-06-18T13:50:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/221 "2003-06-19T22:59:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*. But you’re right in that the target of Paul’s ire was not First Century homosexuality but rather the Roman equivalent of the jet set and establishment Rome of the day. \*\* I think I’d answer that as “Yes, but…” Paul is using homosexuality in Romans as an example of decadence and sinfulness, but as part of that, I do think he finds homosexuality to be decadent and sinful. You see that attitude in a lot of Roman philosophy at the time, especially in the Stoic and Epicurean schools, which were two of the biggest. (As far as I know, you don’t see it in Platonism at the time. Given Plato’s writings and his own leanings, it would surprise me if you did, but philosophies can change.) So for Paul, raised a Jew with a Hellenistic philsophical education, writing to a Roman audience, condemnation of homosexuality is a pretty safe course to take. In fact, the section in Romans sounds an awful lot like the Stoic philosopher Musonius Rufus, who’s most famous as the teacher of Epicetus and wrote about about the same time Paul did. Here’s Rufus, from his “Diatribe XII-On Sexual Indulgence” > [@](#): > > Not the least significant part of the life of luxury and self-indugence lies also in sexual excess; for example, those who lead such a life crave a variety of loves not only lawful but unlawful ones as well, not women alone but also men; sometimes they pursue one love and sometimes another, and not being satisified with those which are available, pursue tohse which are rare and inaccessible, and invent shameful intimaciesm, all of which constitute a grave indictment of manhood. [He then says that sexual intercourse is only justifiable when trying to beget children, then briefly touches on homosexuality again]. . .But of all sexual relations, those involving adultery are most unlawful, and no more tolerable are those of men with men, because it is a monstrous thing and contrary to nature. [He then finishes the essay by condemning sex outside of marriage and having sex with one’s slaves] ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/222 "2003-06-19T23:19:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Esprix \* > **I acknowledge you’re in a sticky wicket as the SBC speaks for all of Southern Baptism and you do not agree that it speaks for all individual Southern Baptists, but you have to accept the fact that people can - and will - talk about “what Southern Baptism believes” and it will be completely within the bounds of debate.** But part of the problem is that Baptists also believe, as a fundimental of their faith, that every individual is responsible for their own beliefs, and that no organization can prevent them from following their own concience. Even though they’re not as non-creedal as the Unitarians, the decisions of the Conventions aren’t binding on their member churches, and the decisions of the member churches aren’t binding on their members, even though these decisions higher up have weight. So, the SBC doesn’t speak for all Southern Baptism, just for itself as an organization. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/223 "2003-06-19T23:29:51Z")
You could probably substitute the Vatican or the Pope for SBC. While the Vatican has much more control over it’s dioceses than does the SBC, that is not to say that ALL Catholics are in agreement with the Pope-and nor should they necessarily feel like they have to leave the church to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/224 "2003-06-20T01:35:21Z")
But it’s fair to say “The Catholic Church believe” or even “Catholics believe.” I mean, really, if not, what’s the point of having these governing bodies? They sound useless if you can just go off and believe whatever you want. What’s the point of “belonging to a religion” if that’s the case? I mean, you all almost sound _Unitarian_ for cryin’ out loud! Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/225 "2003-06-20T01:52:18Z")
Well, **I** am probably a Unitarian. 😉 My parents, however, are still staunchly Catholic. They don’t believe, however, that homosexuality is a sin, nor is birth control, or sex, or whatever. BUT… …they believe in the spiritual beliefs-in every single word of the Nicene Creed-which is the basis of the Christian faith. BUT…they might not believe in certain social traditions, pertaining to sex and things like that. The Creed says nothing about sex or birth control or whatever. It just states their spiritual beliefs. There’s a LOT more to Catholicism than just their beliefs on sex. I am still attached to it in many ways-liberation theology and a Catholic education are the biggest perks. You’re talking about the most scholarly denomination in Christianity! Asking them to give up their beliefs in GOD-well, they feel that the Catholic church best suits it. And people are trying-honestly, they’re trying. What MORE do you want? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/226 "2003-06-20T02:07:40Z")
**Guin** , I’d like your comments on the following: > [@](#): > > The Baptismal Covenant > Q: Do you Believe in God the Father? > A: I believe in God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth. > > Q: Do you believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God? > A: I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He decended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. > > Q: Do you Believe in God the Holy Spirit? > A: I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. > > Q: Will you continue in the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in the prayers? > A: I will, with God’s help. > > Q: Will you persevere in resisting evil, and, whenever you fall into sin, repent and return to the Lord? > A: I will, with God’s help. > > Q: Will you proclaim by word and example the Good News of God in Christ? > A: I will, with God’s help. > > Q: Will you seek and serve Christ in all persons, loving your neighbor as yourself? > A: I will with God’s help. > > Q: Will you strive for justice and peace among all people, and respect the dignity of every human being? > A: I will, with God’s help. As you may have surmised, it’s part of a liturgy. Do feel free to argue with it, point out the parts you find wrong, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/227 "2003-06-20T02:18:11Z")
Pretty much, yeah. I just mean, I believe in truth in ALL religions, well, except for $cientology. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/228 "2003-06-20T02:32:32Z")
Nothing much to add to the topic, but I felt I should point out one thing. Fred Phelps is _not_ a member of the Southern Baptists. He routinely prints fliers accusing the Southern Baptist Convention of going too easily on homosexuals (!!!) and calling them hellbound. I’m certainly no fan of the SBC myself, but to lump them into Fred’s brand of happy horseshit is inaccurate. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/229 "2003-06-20T02:38:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*If they’re the ones I’m thinking of-and correct me if I’m wrong-weren’t they going outside convents and Catholic schools, throwing around condoms, dressing up like nuns and priests and making out? I can support their cause, without supporting their methods. \*\* Dunno, what you’ve mentioned seems pretty cool. Does it bother you that Montreal’s pride parade’s route takes it in front of Mary Queen of the World Cathedral? ---
**Author:** ![lel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8797f3/32.png) [@lel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lel)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/230 "2003-06-20T02:56:46Z")
**gobear** , wishing many good thoughts for your sister, you, and your family. I gave many good portions of my life to the S. Baptists, and supported them for years. I may not have agreed with every action they have taken, but in the past I’ve gladly supported the SBC with my time, money and skills and see absolutely no need to apologize for doing so. To see it compared with horribly vile organizations (such as the Nazi party or the Taliban) in this thread absolutely disgusts me. Yes, many S. Baptists have an agenda – to get everyone saved. This is quite transparent. I know when many S. Baptists are being nice, they are doing it because they want me to accept Jesus. This frustrates me quite often, but still, many S. Baptists have done many kindly things in my life and I cannot completely forget this. So they often want to convert homosexuals. They certainly aren’t forcing anyone to convert. Besides, they could be right about the whole homosexuality thing; maybe God (if such exists) desires that people cease homosexual sex acts. I hope not, but maybe God really does want gay people to be rescued from their lifestyle or something – I cannot know with absolute certainty what God thinks or wants. Assuming for the sake of argument that God exists, I’d also much rather try to conform my desires to His will than try to conform God’s will to my own desires. If God does not approve of homosexuality, it is my duty to conform to God’s will, rather than try to make God’s will reflect my own desire to accept homosexuals just as they are. (A few notes: I also firmly hope and truly believe that God desires that we love each other, no matter if we believe that they are committing “active” sins or not. However, I’m going to hedge my bets on “God doesn’t exist.”) It’s times like these when I wish the SBC were more accepting of agnostics, because despite the fact that I personally don’t agree with their stance on rescuing homosexuals from a sinful lifestyle, many recent events have reminded me that S. Baptists and the SBC have a lot to offer Christianity and the world. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/231 "2003-06-20T03:31:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > \*\*Dunno, what you’ve mentioned seems pretty cool. Does it bother you that Montreal’s pride parade’s route takes it in front of Mary Queen of the World Cathedral? \*\* So you honestly have no problem with harassing little old ladies and school children by throwing contraceptives at them? That was my point-it’s NOT cool. Those little kids and those nuns have fuck all to do with the Vatican’s position on homosexuality. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/232 "2003-06-20T03:40:45Z")
1. The “Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence” are a group of gay men in San Francisco who dress up as nuns during Pride parades and such, in an over-the-top bit of humor. They do not harass nuns or little kids. 2. ACT-UP was a group formed by Larry Kramer to draw attention to the AIDS problem, back when President Reagan was playing ostrich about it. Some ACT-UP groups are responsible for the condom-throwing and harassment; some have adopted a variant on the Duesberg hypothesis; and some do neither, but attempt to draw public attention to the AIDS pandemic. AFAIK, there is no overlap between the two groups. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/233 "2003-06-20T03:44:10Z")
Well, as I said-I checked and I was wrong. HOWEVER, **matt** said if that happened it would be “pretty cool.” I don’t think that it would be cool at all. I already appologized for my mistake. ACT UP is notorious, I believe, for going in and harassing people while having Mass, are they not? I can support the cause, if not the method, no? Remember-I’m on your side in this! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/234 "2003-06-20T03:44:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > \*\*But part of the problem is that Baptists also believe, as a fundimental of their faith, that every individual is responsible for their own beliefs, and that no organization can prevent them from following their own concience. Even though they’re not as non-creedal as the Unitarians, the decisions of the Conventions aren’t binding on their member churches, and the decisions of the member churches aren’t binding on their members, even though these decisions higher up have weight. So, the SBC doesn’t speak for all Southern Baptism, just for itself as an organization. \*\* Traditionally that is so. However, as I listed examples before, the SBC has begun to force it’s will on member churches and missionaries. Many of the missionaries would not sign the statement of faith because they considered it a creed. They were fired. The SBC seems to have dropped the “non-creedal” aspect of Baptist beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/235 "2003-06-20T03:55:33Z")
Um, Guin, those weren’t among the things you mentioned. You mentioned: - being outside convents and Catholic schools, - throwing around condoms, - dressing up like nuns and priests, and - making out. I have no objections to any of these things, together or singly. Targeted harassment of individuals is OTT, as is breaking in on someone’s mass, but the fact is the Catholic church is highly retrograde on these issues and is a valid target for peaceful protest. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/236 "2003-06-20T03:56:31Z")
See, and that’s why I can’t consider myself a Catholic anymore-because there’s just too much that the Vatican has stated that I don’t believe-mainly their position on birth control and sex. However, it took me years to realize this. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/237 "2003-06-20T04:00:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > \*\*Um, Guin, those weren’t among the things you mentioned. You mentioned: > > - being outside convents and Catholic schools, > - throwing around condoms, > - dressing up like nuns and priests, and > - making out. > > I have no objections to any of these things, together or singly. Targeted harassment of individuals is OTT, as is breaking in on someone’s mass, but the fact is the Catholic church is highly retrograde on these issues and is a valid target for peaceful protest. \*\* If you are outside the convent and school-and you start throwing condoms at the school-and there are nuns and school kids there, would that not constitute harassment? Look, you KNOW I’m on your side, and you KNOW I agree that the Vatican needs to leave the 13th century. I really have no problem with protests, dressing up like priests and nuns, etc. It’s all in fun. HOWEVER, if you choose to do this in front of a school, while classes are going on, while tossing things at the school, don’t you think that’s a bit much? I think, if anything, it would make people LESS likely to change their minds. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/238 "2003-06-20T04:18:36Z")
> [@](#): > > there are nuns and school kids there, would that not constitute harassment? I’d say the school kids need it more than anyone, especially if there are nuns involved, but I see your point too. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/239 "2003-06-20T04:23:05Z")
Yeah, exactly. Look, FWIW, I realize I was wrong in assuming that they were the group that did this-if indeed I was remembering the story right at all-and I do appologize. (Actually, we knew all about that stuff when I went to Catholic school. Our reaction would’ve been to giggle like fiends.) ---
**Author:** ![presidebt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c37758/32.png) [@presidebt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/presidebt)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/240 "2003-06-20T05:44:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Esprix \* > \*\*I see what you’re saying - don’t assume the individual believes everything as the the organization does - but when someone says “Southern Baptists believe X,” it’s the truth, if the SBC has said, “Southern Baptists believe X.” It’s their job to define Southern Baptism. I applaud your work, and I appreciate you standing up for your own personal beliefs, but it is not inappropriate to talk about what southern Baptists believe. > > Now, there are limits to this; for example, you would be hard pressed to say “Christianity believes X” because there is no one defining, governing body of all of Christianity, as there are a hundred different denominations of the same “parent religion” - the Baptists do not believe what the Methodists believe, as they interpret the Bible differently (and the Bible is about the only thing that could be considered a “defining authority,” if it weren’t for the fact that everyone interprets it differently, which in and of itself sounds like a Great Debate). Similarly, as there is no “defining organization” for the gay community, you can’t say “The GLBT community believes X;” you can say “many members believe X” or “the NGLTF believes X,” but we don’t have a tribal council to decide these things. > > I acknowledge you’re in a sticky wicket as the SBC speaks for all of Southern Baptism and you do not agree that it speaks for all individual Southern Baptists, but you have to accept the fact that people can - and will - talk about “what Southern Baptism believes” and it will be completely within the bounds of debate. > > IMHO, that is. > > Esprix \*\* Exactly. I couldn’t have said it better myself, which is why I refrained from trying again. Thank you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694.md?page=13)