# With Friends like the S. Baptists, Gays Need No Enemies **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 18, 2003, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694 "2003-06-18T13:50:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/61 "2003-06-18T19:30:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homebrew \* > **Have none of you gobear detractors ever heard of exaggeration? I doubt gobear really believes all SBs are trailer trash;** One would hope that if this is how he felt, he would have said something to that effect by now. He’s had plenty of chances. ---
**Author:** ![macabresoul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e68b1a/32.png) [@macabresoul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/macabresoul)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/62 "2003-06-18T19:31:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Frankly, I’d like a Baptist to befriend me. Especially that cute young Baptist fellow around the corner. We’d hang out, watch movies on the couch together, go on picnics, maybe wrestle when we’re feeling playful - you know, healthy, normal, guy stuff. > > Esprix 😛 > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Lord Ashtar \* > Now you have not only stereotyped an entire group of people, which is what you are mad at the SBC for, but you have categorically misrepresented what I have said._\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tdn \* > **What I am saying is that responding to mindless stereotyping with more mindless stereotyping may not be the most effective tactic at your disposal. You have every right to call SBs “trailer park trash”, but by doing so you do more harm to yourself than to your intended targets.** Umm, bullshit alert. The Southern baptists are not stereotyping dumbasses. They are saying a whole group of people are bad because they are different. Stereotyping is saying something like, “well if Johnny is a dumbass than all people named Johnny and dumbasses.” What the SBC is doing is calling out a whole group of people to be cleansed, is a sense. You morons are comparing the SBC’s hate speech to gobears stereotyping. Although I am against any type of stereotyping, these sexist fucks are LIVING UP to thier whitetrash stereotype by spouting this bullshit. Stop wasting your time ripping on gobear and spend some time shutting the fuck up. Stop being ignorant fuckwads and look at what side you are really fighting for. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/63 "2003-06-18T19:31:38Z")
Gah, I’m so angry, my typing is worse than usual. The SBC don’t live in trailers (not all of them anyway). Now that takes care of one guy’s complaints on a message board. Now when do you plan to object to the SBC picketing gay bars, harrassing gay people, and encouraging the repeal of equal rights legislation? My comments harm them not at all, but their tactics do harm me and mine. > [@](#): > > And the final benefit: I won’t have to get medieval on your ass. Too late, which is why I’m angry in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/64 "2003-06-18T19:39:31Z")
**gobear** : We basically simulposted, so neither of us saw the other’s remarks. That’s probably a good thing. Please think about what I said. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/65 "2003-06-18T19:40:39Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by Homebrew_ > > Have none of you **Gobear** detractors ever heard of exaggeration? I doubt **Gobear** really believes all SBs are trailer trash > > _Originally posted by tdn_ > > One would hope that if this is how he felt, he would have said something to that effect by now. He’s had plenty of chances. The Religious Right as exemplified by the SBC wants to limit or eliminate my civil rights, harass and persecute me and mine, but it is my angry response that gets you riled. Amazing. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/66 "2003-06-18T19:42:37Z")
“Love the sinner, hate the sin” is a fallacy. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Aries28](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Aries28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aries28)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/67 "2003-06-18T19:46:41Z")
I don’t see how we went from “Hey…I agree with you guys that the SBC is wrong and everybody should be treated the same” to me being a “trailer trash, sexist fuck, and ignorant fuckwad who needs to shut up?” I DO object to picketing gay bars. I DO object to harrassing gay people. I DO object to their not being equal rights legislation. I think it’s absolutley godawful that someone would hit someone with a chain because they were at a gay bar or becaue they were gay. But it’s disagreements like this has turned into that make me not want to like you…not in the least because you are gay…but because you are being a jerk and more interested in climbing on a moral highground than listening to what people are saying. Color me confused. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Aries28](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Aries28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aries28)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/68 "2003-06-18T19:48:33Z")
Let’s try “there” instead of “their”…wouldn’t want to live up to that ignorant fuckwad label… ---
**Author:** ![carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrot)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/69 "2003-06-18T19:56:20Z")
**gobear** , do you not understand that basically _everyone_ here agrees with you? **tdn** , **Lord Ashtar** , **Aries28** , and **Sauron** are all angered by the actions of the SBC, but they are also angered by yours. They have repeatedly been calm and reasonable in the face of your divisive “with me or against me” invective, and now you’re insulting people based on the actions of others who share one characteristic–their church. This is not the same as their beliefs. Make the distinction, and calm down. Please. I realize that you have suffered for something that is not your fault. I realize that there _are_ idiots who believe in the things that the SBC is doing, but _they are not here_. Save the anger for those that deserve it, and not for the people who are just trying to be your friends. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/70 "2003-06-18T20:01:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*And in Berlin 1934, you were saying the same thing. \*\* For the record, that was the year my father was born. It’s unlikely that I was saying anything. But if I were to say anything, it would be something like “Hitler is a genocidal maniac and must be stopped at all costs”, not “Them Germans is nothin’ but a bunch o’ sauerkraut-eating pedophile commie Martian lovers.” A subtle distinction, I agree, but an important one nonetheless. And for the flip-side of the record, I **am** outraged at the SBC. I find their attitude to be abhorrant. I want to slap them until they bleed. But by resorting to a first-grade level of name calling, that doesn’t do anyone any good. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/71 "2003-06-18T20:01:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by macabresoul \* > Stop being ignorant fuckwads and look at what side you are really fighting for. Good advice. Why don’t _you_ stop being an ignorant fuckwad and look who you’re arguing **with** : People who agree with your viewpoint. And why? So you can employ a stereotype. Is that worth losing the support of people who belong (albeit tenuously) to the very group you’re fighting against? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/72 "2003-06-18T20:01:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by macabresoul \* > Umm, bullshit alert. The Southern baptists are not stereotyping dumbasses. They are saying a whole group of people are bad because they are different. Stereotyping is saying something like, “well if Johnny is a dumbass than all people named Johnny and dumbasses.” What the SBC is doing is calling out a whole group of people to be cleansed, is a sense. > > You morons are comparing the SBC’s hate speech to gobears stereotyping. Although I am against any type of stereotyping, these sexist fucks are LIVING UP to thier whitetrash stereotype by spouting this bullshit. > > Stop wasting your time ripping on gobear and spend some time shutting the fuck up. Stop being ignorant fuckwads and look at what side you are really fighting for. Perhaps I am not being clear. I am not “fighting for” the SBC here. I think they are wrong. All I did was offer a bit of advice to **gobear** that I thought would help strengthen his cause. He doesn’t agree with me. Fine. No harm done. **gobear** , you probably either don’t care or are tired of hearing this, but I am truly sorry for the crap you’ve had to deal with during your life. Obviously, there is no excuse for the chain incident, or the fact that your rights are not equal to mine, simply because you are attracted to men and I to women. Not fair, not right. But, I ask that you do not lump me in with a group of loonies like the SBC. They do not represent me, my beliefs, or my God. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/73 "2003-06-18T20:02:13Z")
Not to turn this into a Joe/Jersey debate but – they believe (as conservative Christians) that gay sex is sinful – fine, that’s their prerogative – and that people have the right to live the way they choose – and that gay-bashing is flat-out wrong. This does not, in my mind, make them evil. I disagree strongly with a lot of their opinions, and think that they’ve been rude to more than one person here on several occasions (and been the targets of equal rudeness for expressing their own opinions). But I can see the people behind the words on a message board. And the people I see are not the demons that some other folks are; they’re people with opinions, sometimes vehemently expressed, who are not interested in forcing others to kowtow to their idea of good moral standards, and in fact will stand up for people they disagree with. Now, back to the basic argument: First, the SBC, as a national-church entity, has gone out of its way to attack gay people and particularly gay rights organizations. This is not true for most other denominations. Second, **Eve** is right on target here: > [@](#): > > In **Gobear** ’s defense, one really can’t blame him for snapping, and losing his temper. You can only take so much of this sort of thing. As a lighter aside, I had flashbacks from _The Best Little Boy in the World_ reading **Esprix** ’s: > [@](#): > > Frankly, I’d like a Baptist to befriend me. Especially that cute young Baptist fellow around the corner. We’d hang out, watch movies on the couch together, go on picnics, maybe wrestle when we’re feeling playful - you know, healthy, normal, guy stuff. Third, **Gobear** is right on this: > [@](#): > > Yes, Southern Baptists are fundamentalists. Read their official statement on the SBC Faith and Message, which contains the Five Fundamentals: > Literal inerrancy of the autographs; > The virgin birth and deity of Christ; > The substitutionary view of the atonement; > the bodily resurrection of Christ; > The imminent return of Christ. And there’s some history involved in that the moderates (like **Sauron** ) who belonged to the SBC were forced out, slowly but surely, by the conservative evangelicals. **Sauron** , bud, sooner or later there’s going to be a demand on your local church or you to agree with some statement or action that you feel you cannot in good conscience agree with – and you’ll be shown the door, or your local church will. (BTW, given anything to your church, **Sauron**? Some of your money is being used to support the campaign to defame and denounce **gobear** and the other gay men an women here. ) Fourth, I don’t agree with **gobear** ’s broadbrush characterization of SBCs as totally beer-swilling trailer-trash with more appliances on their front porch than in their kitchens. However, he was only giving as good as he got – obviously a libertarian in a committed relationship is a promiscuous HIV+ hedonist trying to force an immoral lifestyle on the schoolkids of America – he’s gay; how could he possibly be something other than the stereotype? And I don’t see him calling for outlawing Christianity, or the SBC, or making it a felony to have an adult baptism (20 years to life) – which is what they’re doing to him. > [@](#): > > I asked someone to correct me if they knew what the real text is, which you obviously don’t. And it’s pretty clear already what the opposition believes, they hate gays, they want to get rid of them. It’s all nice and good that they are saying they want to help gays now, but it doesn’t change the fact that they have, do, and will continue to persecute homosexuals and anyone not fitting in to thier clique. Notice my bolding text, you just repeated what I said, wtf are you trying to prove? > > Using the word ‘disturbed’ is giving them way too much benefit of the doubt here. it’s more like, “we love everybody, except if you are gay, so change your ways and we will love you again.” Does that give them any moral highground? IT IS hate speech, they are preaching to have 42,000 churches try to end this ‘gay epidemic’ pleague. I call it passive agressive hate speech. I do too, and I denounce it as against the teachings of Jesus Christ. Finally, and most importantly: > [@](#): > > And in Berlin 1934, you were saying the same thing. Okay, I’ve said it, **Priam** ’s said it, and **gobear** ’s said it. And sixty years ago Robert A. Heinlein said it. The only thing between us and a Christian dictatorship is the defense of our rights and those of our fellow man – even when you may not approve of what your fellow man is doing. GWB is pandering to a constituency that supported him – no question about that. But in doing that, he’s slamming about 10% of the country that he took an oath to support and defend. And he’s going against nearly 50% of the country that does not approve of the SBC-style demonization of gays, liberals, women’s lib., etc. I’d type out the relevant line from Martin Heidegger. But I’m too damn tired and depressed. If I have one message in this thread, it’s that a lot of people realize what sort of people you all really are, and are on your side. Stop shooting at your friends, and at each other, and concentrate your ammo on the real enemy. ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/74 "2003-06-18T20:06:04Z")
To the OP: Oh good Christ on a crutch. So I get to look forward to this when college starts again this fall? The Baptist Student Union (to my knowledge, Southern Baptist) will probably be out there forming a Queers for Christ chapter. Good thing I live off-campus, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/75 "2003-06-18T20:07:28Z")
“I belong to a Southern Baptist church. I disagree strongly with many of the policies enacted by the Southern Baptists at the annual conventions . . .” —I’m curious: why do you still _belong_ to the church if you disagree with so many of their policies? “‘Love the sinner, hate the sin’ is a fallacy.” —[Pee Wee Herman] “Mmmm—phallus-y!” [/Pee Wee Herman] ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/76 "2003-06-18T20:10:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > Bullshit. I’m using the same tactics as they are. That’s parity, not immaturity. To behave as they do shows nothing but that you can hate just like they do. It is childish, petulant, and does nothing more than increase animosity. > [@](#): > > Yes, Southern Baptists are fundamentalists. Read their official statement on the SBC Faith and Message, which contains the [Five Fundamentals](http://www.x-tremefundamentalism.com/): > Literal inerrancy of the autographs; > The virgin birth and deity of Christ; > The substitutionary view of the atonement; > the bodily resurrection of Christ; > The imminent return of Christ. > Again, you are wrong. As **MrVisible** observed, I’m objecting to their tactics; they are objecting to my existence. Nothing I say about them can possibly be bad enough. > > You are fooled by their use of the word “love,” which they wield in the same manner as an abusive boyfriend, "I love you _SMACK_ " Their form of love is indistinguishable from the blackest hate. > > Frankly, I’ve had enough of you gutless cowards who stand on the sidelines and do nothing as we have to struggle for the same rights you take for granted. You don’t have to put up with getting picketed, having to fear losing you’re jobs or apartments because we’re gay, being beaten and murdered because you’re gay. > And in Berlin 1934, you were saying the same thing. > > I can’t believe that you people are more concerned with the literal truth of my attacks on the SBC than you are with the SBC’s tactics. > > Fine, The SBC don’t live in trailers (not all of them anyway). Now that takes care of one guys complaints on a message board. Now ehn fdo you plasn to object to the SBC picketing gay bars, harrassing gay people , and encouraging the repeal of equal rights legislation. My comments harm them not at all, but their tactics do harm me and mine.’ > > Where’s the outrage? > > And the next time I get hit by a [chain](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=135183&highlight=gaybashing) coming out of a gay bar because someone was told by a minister that gays deserve what they get for being sinners, I’ll be sure to think of all you. The rest I agree with completely. There _is_ a big difference between disagreeing with how they worship and them disagreeing with our very existence. What is more chilling to me is that the Shrub sent a video telling them they are doing a good job. With Dubya not signing the proclimation for gay pride and his codification of the Southern Baptists, it leaves me to wonder what our glorious Commandant in Chief would do where gays are concerned if he had carte blanche sans repercussions. ---
**Author:** ![Super\_Gnat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Super\_Gnat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Super_Gnat)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/77 "2003-06-18T20:10:44Z")
A libertarian? ---
**Author:** ![Super\_Gnat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Super\_Gnat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Super_Gnat)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/78 "2003-06-18T20:12:33Z")
The above directed to **Polycarp**. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/79 "2003-06-18T20:23:26Z")
Silly hamsters. Okay. I had a big long statement. I’m cutting it down. Everyone, get a grip. I’m not insulting any of you. **macabresoul** , try this link on for size: [http://blogs.salon.com/0001772/stories/2003/02/18/iHaveNoTitleForThis.html](http://blogs.salon.com/0001772/stories/2003/02/18/iHaveNoTitleForThis.html) Everyone else: You will never convince a single person that hate is wrong if you yourself hate them. That there, that bit right there, that’s all I’m trying to say here. That’s all. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/80 "2003-06-18T20:23:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes, Southern Baptists are fundamentalists. Read their official statement on the SBC Faith and Message, which contains the Five Fundamentals: I want to make sure I have something clear – is the SBC an official, sovereign, independant entity with its own TIN and line of T-shirts? If so, is it possible that there are some Baptists who happen to live south of the Mason-Dixon line who are not part of that organization? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694.md?page=5)