# With Friends like the S. Baptists, Gays Need No Enemies **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 18, 2003, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694 "2003-06-18T13:50:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/81 "2003-06-18T20:33:12Z")
SBC = fundamentalists. :smack: I’m wrong, y’all are right. :o Carry on. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![macabresoul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e68b1a/32.png) [@macabresoul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/macabresoul)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/82 "2003-06-18T20:34:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aries28 \* > **I don’t see how we went from “Hey…I agree with you guys that the SBC is wrong and everybody should be treated the same” to me being a "trailer trash, sexist fuck, and ignorant fuckwad who needs to shut up?"** Weren’t you responding to the OP saying you were a baptist and but did’t believe in what they stood for. Now i know your motivation but detaching yourself from them when they attack others and then reattaching to them when they are attacked is a bit too convinient eh? Why are you still a baptist if you disagree with them so much. [/quote] - Posted by Sauron\* Good advice. Why don’t you stop being an ignorant fuckwad and look who you’re arguing with: People who agree with your viewpoint. And why? So you can employ a stereotype. Is that worth losing the support of people who belong (albeit tenuously) to the very group you’re fighting against? [/quote] Oh yup sorry, I forgot I’m not supose to argue with people who disagree with me. :rolleyes: All I see you doing is attacking gobear harder than you have denouced the churches actions. Now I am not saying you NEED to hate the church, but i’m saying you are confused as to which kind of ignorance you are really fighting here. Now me saying the SBC is whitetrash IS a stereotype, but because they are living up to the very things that create that stereotype, does it make it false? Ok that was just to prove my point. I will now heed polycarps advice, we ARE on the same side, even though we take a different approach. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/83 "2003-06-18T20:34:40Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t see how we went from “Hey…I agree with you guys that the SBC is wrong and everybody should be treated the same” to me being a “trailer trash, sexist fuck, and ignorant fuckwad who needs to shut up?” Care to show me where I addressed any such comment to you? A simple cut and paste will do. > [@](#): > > They have repeatedly been calm and reasonable in the face of your divisive “with me or against me” invective, and now you’re insulting people based on the actions of others who share one characteristic–their church. This is not the same as their beliefs. Make the distinction, and calm down. Please. Gosh, you’re right. The Pit is not the place to vent when one is angry. I forgot that nobody ever raises their voice in this forum. I don’t lead anti-BC marches. I don’t demand revocation of their civil rights. Hell, I’ve stuck up for Christians who were being unfairly treated, as **Mockingbird** pointed out. Yet who sticks up for me? Who understands why I’m angry? Who has any sympathy at all for what I’m saying? Nobody. You’re more outraged that I insulted the fine members of an organization that is opposed to my existence and wishes to legislate away my civil rights. > [@](#): > > To behave as they do shows nothing but that you can hate just like they do. > > It is childish, petulant, and does nothing more than increase animosity I’ve tried the Gandhi approach, to return kindness for hate, and you what that made me? A chump. What, do you expect me to love them? To whine and beg them to be my friends? To submit quietly? I’ve had enough. I’ve had enough of. . . everything. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/84 "2003-06-18T20:40:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tdn \* > \*\*I want to make sure I have something clear – is the SBC an official, sovereign, independant entity with its own TIN and line of T-shirts? If so, is it possible that there are some Baptists who happen to live south of the Mason-Dixon line who are not part of that organization? \*\* Factual interjection: Baptists are set up on a _congregational_ polity, which means that every single Baptist church is the supreme authority over its own affairs – as opposed to other denominations where the national or worldwide church has an enormous say over what the local church can and cannot do. Most Baptist churches belong to “conventions” which are supposedly-voluntary organizations of local churches to achieve missionary and policy-setting goals. The National Baptist Convention, to which most Baptist churches belonged in the early 19th Century, split into two before the Civil War – on the issue of slavery, as it happens, though that’s long since gone by the boards. In the North, the American Baptist Convention, which is fairly liberal, is the one that most Baptist churches belong to. In the South, the Southern Baptist Convention, which is (as of late) strongly fundamentalist and doctrinaire in their stances, is the big gun – and the largest single denomination in the U.S.A. (Black Baptists have their own groups, by and large – and I had a job interview last year with the North Carolina Council of Churches, which takes a strong liberal stance and which the state’s black Baptist group and the UFMCC both belong to.) The moderate former SBC churches which withdrew when the fundies staged their takeover belong to another group now, but they’re a very small faction compared to the SBC. So there are a lot of independent Baptist churches that don’t belong to the SBC, but either to another group or to no group whatsoever – but most (white) Baptist churches in the South do belong to it. The problem is worsened by the fact that the SBC is planting new churches supported by the contributions of the established member churches – and they, being indebted to the SBC, have no choice but to go along with the denominational stance. And yes, **Super Gnat** , our friend **gobear** has several times described himself as a libertarian. I see no reason to doubt his word about his political beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/85 "2003-06-18T20:40:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Super Gnat \* > \*\*A libertarian? \*\* Small ‘l’ ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/86 "2003-06-18T20:43:49Z")
“Yet who sticks up for me? Who understands why I’m angry? Who has any sympathy at all for what I’m saying? Nobody.” —Oh, now, **Gobear** , dear, don’t go all Bert Williams on us; **Poly** and **Esprix** and I are certainly behind you. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/87 "2003-06-18T20:46:58Z")
> [@](#): > > For the record, that was the year my father was born. It’s unlikely that I was saying anything. But if I were to say anything, it would be something like “Hitler is a genocidal maniac and must be stopped at all costs”, not “Them Germans is nothin’ but a bunch o’ sauerkraut-eating pedophile commie Martian lovers.” A subtle distinction, I agree, but an important one nonetheless. Actually, it’s “Them **NAZIS** is nothin’ but a bunch o’ sauerkraut-eating pedophile commie Martian lovers.” The Germans were a disparate group of different religions, dialects, and backgrounds that only had their homeland in common. The Nazis were a political organization with a unified system of beliefs, including their own superiority to other groups. Do you have a problem with insulting Nazis? Which is a better description of the SBC, a disparate group of differing backgrounds, or a group with unified system of beliefs? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/88 "2003-06-18T20:47:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\* > Yet who sticks up for me? Who understands why I’m angry? Who has any sympathy at all for what I’m saying? Nobody. You’re more outraged that I insulted the fine members of an organization that is opposed to my existence and wishes to legislate away my civil rights. > \*\* You’re wrong, I’m afraid, **gobear**. I am a hundred times happier with you than I am with the people who want to take away your civil rights. I understand. I really, really do. You have every right to be angry, and I’m on your side, man. But I think hate’s a poison, and it doesn’t discriminate. > [@](#): > > **I’ve tried the Gandhi approach, to return kindness for hate, and you what that made me?** Admirable. A better man than those who hated you. Better than your instincts led you. Don’t submit quietly. Don’t just _let_ things happen. But don’t hate them, either. I would say love them, but that’s because love’s the basis of my beliefs in this world. It’s damn hard to love them, and they don’t deserve it. That’s why I try, regardless. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/89 "2003-06-18T20:48:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eve \* > \*\*“I belong to a Southern Baptist church. I disagree strongly with many of the policies enacted by the Southern Baptists at the annual conventions . . .” > > —I’m curious: why do you still _belong_ to the church if you disagree with so many of their policies?\*\* Count me in as someone else who’d be interested in this explanation. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Little Plastic Ninja_\*\* I am ALLOWED to say that Baptists are full of shit, they all screw dogs, they’re all white trash, they’re all ignorant and stupid, they all have very small penises.\*\* Good god! They drive SUVs, too! Someone stop the madness! Julie ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/90 "2003-06-18T20:49:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > And there’s some history involved in that the moderates (like **Sauron** ) who belonged to the SBC were forced out, slowly but surely, by the conservative evangelicals. **Sauron** , bud, sooner or later there’s going to be a demand on your local church or you to agree with some statement or action that you feel you cannot in good conscience agree with – and you’ll be shown the door, or your local church will. (BTW, given anything to your church, **Sauron**? Some of your money is being used to support the campaign to defame and denounce **gobear** and the other gay men an women here. ) Couple of points: The SBC is a lot more tolerant now (or less aggressive in their approach, depending on your viewpoint) of churches who don’t completely toe the company line. Contrary to what many here apparently believe, there’s not some SBC secret police who travel around and report on the activities of church members. The SBC is more likely to get eye-rolled than agreed with in my Sunday School class. My memory is faulty, but I seem to recall a huge Texas church (in Dallas, maybe?), with somewhere in the neighborhood of 10,000 members, who refused to agree with the Disney boycott back in 1997. As a result, they left the SBC. (They weren’t kicked out – they left. Rumor has it the honchos of the SBC were trying everything they could to get them to stay in, because a church that size gives beaucoup bucks to the SBC in a year’s time.) The kicker? In 1998, Disney posted some of its largest profits ever. So the big boycott, which cost the SBC one of its biggest donors, didn’t hurt Disney a whit. (Granted, Disney’s profits have dipped a bit since then, but I tend to believe that’s more a function of the overall economy rather than a six-year-old boycott.) So, in essence, the SBC has _already_ asked for my support of a position I disagree with. The result? I ignored it. And from what I can tell, the SBC’s position made absolutely no difference in the lives of me or my other Southern Baptist friends. I do give to my church. I’m commanded by the texts that guide my faith to do so. What my church does with that money is out of my control, beyond my voice in business meetings. I believe the SBC will ultimately answer for their stewardship of the money they receive. > [@](#): > > Fourth, I don’t agree with **gobear** ’s broadbrush characterization of SBCs as totally beer-swilling trailer-trash with more appliances on their front porch than in their kitchens. However, he was only giving as good as he got … See, this is where my personal philosophy differs from his. I’m commanded by the cornerstone of my faith NOT to “give as good as I get.” Rather, I’m told to forgive “seventy times seven” the iniquities heaped upon me. I’m reminded of a story told by a visiting pastor once (and I may get some particulars wrong): A poor woman was accosted, robbed and beaten by two men as she walked home one evening. Rather than fight back, the woman kept saying things like “God forgives you, and I forgive you” and “Jesus loves you.” This served to enrage the men, who continued to beat her until she almost died. (The woman was a member of the pastor’s church; he got the story directly from her.) Several months later, the woman was visited by one of the men. He’d kept her address, which he found in her purse. He told her he couldn’t stop hearing her voice in his head, telling him he was forgiven for what he did. That made a huge impression on him. As a result, he accepted Christ as his savior, repaid the woman the money that was taken from her, and confessed his crime to the police. Once he was released from jail, he started an inner-city ministry. Could I do the same in the woman’s situation? I doubt it. But her response, although seemingly ridiculous on the surface, had more of an effect than active fighting would have. I’m just sayin’. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by gobear_ > Yet who sticks up for me? Who understands why I’m angry? Who has any sympathy at all for what I’m saying? Nobody. If you honestly believe this, there’s no point in continuing to post to this thread. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/91 "2003-06-18T20:50:01Z")
I wish I was rich. Then I would hire private investigators to follow around all these so-called moral people and dig up dirt on them. Drinking? Why let me snap a picture and mail it to everyone in your congregation. Having an affair? Here’s another picture to boot. Heck, I’d put out a weekly newsletter. While I’m sure there are some people who actually practice what they preach, I’m sure I could find enough scoundrels to turn the SBC on its head. ---
**Author:** ![Super\_Gnat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Super\_Gnat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Super_Gnat)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/92 "2003-06-18T20:50:46Z")
That makes sense. I didn’t know you were referring to **gobear** , and then tried to figure out whether you meant libertarians were opposed to marriage or that all libertarians are gay :). ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/93 "2003-06-18T20:50:54Z")
Aw, **Eve** , leave it to you to allude to one of Flo Ziegfield’s headliners. . . and thank you for the support. Actually, ol’ Bert very much sums up my mood at the moment. > [@](#): > > I ain’t don’t nothin’ > to nobody > I ain’t never got nothin’ > from from nobody > no time > And until I get me somethin’ > yes, from somebody sometime, > well, I don’t intend to do nothin’ > for nobody > no time ---
**Author:** ![macabresoul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e68b1a/32.png) [@macabresoul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/macabresoul)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/94 "2003-06-18T20:52:01Z")
**Little Plastic Ninja** That is a good link but i’m not sure what you are trying to say. And **gobear** , I stuck up for you, I am as pissed as you. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/95 "2003-06-18T20:52:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > Good god! They drive SUVs, too! > > Someone stop the madness! > > Julie \*\* Waaait a minute. They drive SUVs? Fuck that noise. I hates 'em too. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/96 "2003-06-18T20:57:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by macabresoul \* > \*\ ***Little Plastic Ninja** That is a good link but i’m not sure what you are trying to say. > > And **gobear** , I stuck up for you, I am as pissed as you. \*\* Ehh, I dunno, mac. I just don’t think there needs to be a shitstorm over this. ---
**Author:** ![Aries28](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Aries28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aries28)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/97 "2003-06-18T21:01:18Z")
I think Sauron and my church is slowly but surely breaking away from the SBC…they have scratched their heads one too many times saying “Huh?” to things that come down from the SBC. Then again, we are a little more liberal than most Baptists I suppose. I’m not mad at anyone. I, from the beginning supported the OP in saying that the SBC were behaving as nutjobs on this. And I would post more…and probably will tomorrow but alas, I have to go into a crappy conference call… ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/98 "2003-06-18T21:04:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*Actually, it’s “Them **NAZIS** is nothin’ but a bunch o’ sauerkraut-eating pedophile commie Martian lovers.” \*\* Ah, but you see, this is at the crux of the matter. Are we talking about Germans or about Nazis? Are we talking about Baptists who live in the South, or about the SBC? Similar names, but often quite seperate groups. (Thanks for the info, **Polycarp.** ) When you attacked the SBC, I imagine that you really meant the latter, as an organization. And in that I agree with you. But when you say “Southern Baptists”, you specified a more inclusive group, some of which may be Baptists, but are not part of the SBC. Probably inadvertantly, you went from Nazis to Germans. I think what we have here is a failure to communicate. Would you say this is a fair assessment? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*Yet who sticks up for me? Who understands why I’m angry? Who has any sympathy at all for what I’m saying? Nobody. \*\* Actually, I would say just about everyone on this board. Me included. If you could stop playing the martyr for a minute, you’d see that. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/99 "2003-06-18T21:06:55Z")
Well, if we’re doing Broadway show tunes… > [@](#): > > When you walk through a storm > Hold your head up high > And don’t be afraid of the dark > Walk on through the wind > > Walk on through the rain > Tho’ your dreams be tossed and blown > > [You’ll never walk alone](http://www.boscarol.com/nina/html/where/youllneverwalkal.html) We care, brother. And we’re standing by you, and fighting alongside you. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Diogenes the Cynic** _ > Small ‘l’ “I dream of a world where a man will be judged by what is in his heart, not by the size of his ‘L’” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694/100 "2003-06-18T21:09:46Z")
> [@](#): > > "I don’t see how we went from “Hey…I agree with you guys that the SBC is wrong and everybody should be treated the same” to me being a “trailer trash, sexist fuck, and ignorant fuckwad who needs to shut up?” > > * * * > > Care to show me where I addressed any such comment to you? A simple cut and paste will do. She doesn’t have to show that. She is taking a compilation of opinions posted by those who appear to be your supporters and applying them to you. By your logic, she is perfectly free to do that. Actually, to use your standards, she’s perfectly free – nay, obligated – to insult you in a variety of ways, too, but that’s another matter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-the-s-baptists-gays-need-no-enemies/182694.md?page=6)