# With friends like us, what do the UK and Canada need with enemies? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 23, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-us-what-do-the-uk-and-canada-need-with-enemies/507433 "2009-08-23T22:56:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-us-what-do-the-uk-and-canada-need-with-enemies/507433/41 "2009-08-24T11:17:29Z")
> [@WILLASS](#): > > I don’t really have an opinion on this argument but I too was intrigued by the statement that Hawkings ‘would have died if he was British’ seeing as he’s done a pretty good job of surviving (against the odds I might add surely making this an example of how well the British system works no?) so far! The man himself speaks: > **[tollbit-host.com](http://ww38.tollbit-host.com/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/6017878/Stephen-Hawking-I-would-not-be-alive-without-the-NHS.html)** > > This domain may be for sale! "“I wouldn’t be here today if it were not for the NHS,” he said. “I have received a large amount of high-quality treatment without which I would not have survived.” An American newspaper subsequently used Prof Hawking as an example of the deficiencies of the NHS. “People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn’t have a chance in the UK, where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless,” it claimed. " Can anyone advise which US newspaper achieved this really quite epic level of fail? ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-us-what-do-the-uk-and-canada-need-with-enemies/507433/42 "2009-08-24T11:39:20Z")
It’s not as if Obama is proposing anything remotely resembling the NHS - so not only are the comparisons gross misrepresentations, but they are entirely bogus. It’s all rather charmless. ---
**Author:** ![mecaenas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/91b2a8/32.png) [@mecaenas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mecaenas)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-us-what-do-the-uk-and-canada-need-with-enemies/507433/43 "2009-08-24T11:48:01Z")
Drug companies don’t overcharge in the US to subsidise the rest of the world. What has happened is that the rest of the world has legislation or market forces that forces the prices down there. Just because the US government is bought and sold (oh sorry, campaign contributions) by pharma which allows them to gouge the US market, it isn’t the rest of the world’s fault. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-us-what-do-the-uk-and-canada-need-with-enemies/507433/44 "2009-08-24T11:58:45Z")
> [@WILLASS](#): > > Just a quick ignorance fighting question but I’ve always wanted to know how the pharma company’s advertising works in the US? Do they advertise drugs that you can only get on prescription? If this is true do you wind up with people requesting certain brand drugs from Drs? Do Drs promote certain brands (possible ‘kickbacks’ involved?) To a Britisher used to a ‘you get what you’re given’ system this seems highly strange and kind of pointless. Why not just take what your Dr suggests? In one of the other threads regarding healthcare on here I noticed someone saying that one of the great things about the US system is that as the consumer you have the control to say things like “have you done this test?” and “don’t do that cheap test, do this one instead”. I responded in that thread about how utterly alien that concept was to me as, frankly, I’m not so arrogant as to think I know better than the doctor about things like what test to do. ---
**Author:** ![WILLASS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/54ee81/32.png) [@WILLASS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WILLASS)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-us-what-do-the-uk-and-canada-need-with-enemies/507433/45 "2009-08-24T11:59:09Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > The man himself speaks: > > [tollbit-host.com](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/6017878/Stephen-Hawking-I-would-not-be-alive-without-the-NHS.html) > > "“I wouldn’t be here today if it were not for the NHS,” he said. “I have received a large amount of high-quality treatment without which I would not have survived.” > > An American newspaper subsequently used Prof Hawking as an example of the deficiencies of the NHS. “People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn’t have a chance in the UK, where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless,” it claimed. " > > Can anyone advise which US newspaper achieved this really quite epic level of fail? Wow, that really is a cock-up isn’t it? The man himself is on record as saying how brilliantly he’s been treated and they state the opposite? Is there even any need for an opposistion party when it’s so easy to rubbish their claims? (Am I right in thinking this is a Republican party spokesperson?) What I have never been able to grasp is why ‘socialism’ seems to be so demonised in America? What is wrong with having access to health care etc. for everyone? What is wrong with the rich subsidizing that? I can think of far worse things that tax money is spent on to get annoyed about - it’s essentially like saying that you’d rather your money was wasted on expenses for local councils than given to charity. Are people that obsessed with money in the U.S that giving a small amount away to the poor and needy is viewed with such contempt? I really believe the way a populace treats it’s poor and downtrodden is a good example of the overall ‘health’ of the nation - it seems like the kind of thing a toddler would do when faced with the option of having to share their sweeties out: ‘But they’re all mine, I want them, waaaa, waaaa’. I know it’s not all Americans but the ones that have this view kind of seem like douchbags to me. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-us-what-do-the-uk-and-canada-need-with-enemies/507433/46 "2009-08-24T11:59:49Z")
So is this one of those threads where the Americans claim that all drugs in the world are developed by American companies? If so, when can I start sniggering? ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-us-what-do-the-uk-and-canada-need-with-enemies/507433/47 "2009-08-24T12:01:42Z")
> [@WILLASS](#): > > What I have never been able to grasp is why ‘socialism’ seems to be so demonised in America? Decades of brain washing and propaganda. I’m very amused by how so many right wingers think UHC is the first step to becoming the next USSR. Because we know how all those others countries with UHC ended up like the USSR, don’t we? ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-us-what-do-the-uk-and-canada-need-with-enemies/507433/48 "2009-08-24T12:07:22Z")
> [@WILLASS](#): > > What I have never been able to grasp is why ‘socialism’ seems to be so demonised in America? What is wrong with having access to health care etc. for everyone? It’s a way of wraping what is essentially a practical matter in the national flag, as if there is still an Iron Curtain and the nation would be going to the ‘other side’. There is no other side, just sick people needing health care, but the American public have been encouraged to view the issue in non-rational, emotive terms as if the Cold War didn’t end 20 years ago. It’s bizarre to the rest of the world, but the flag waving always works in that culture. They even sing the national anthem and clutch their chest at town hall meeting discussing the issue . . . The great irony is, of course, systems like the NHS were voted into being by the greatest patriots of all e.g. both the civilian population and returning military personal returning from WW2 at the 1946 election. ---
**Author:** ![WILLASS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/54ee81/32.png) [@WILLASS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WILLASS)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-us-what-do-the-uk-and-canada-need-with-enemies/507433/49 "2009-08-24T12:07:16Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > I responded in that thread about how utterly alien that concept was to me as, frankly, I’m not so arrogant as to think I know better than the doctor about things like what test to do. Exactly! Imagine how annoyed you’d be as a Dr after the years of medical school, the years of 96hr weeks on the emergency ward etc. to be then quizzed by some advert addled simpleton telling you how to do your job? It annoys me when people tell me how to run my projects and they’re kind of allowed to! (just to clarify I don’t when it’s constructive criticism from members of the project board, my boss etc. but random staff members who get involved on ‘what’s best’ even though they have no idea of the constraints imposed leading me to have to re-explain information that was put in the public domain to try to avoid this situation) I go to a Dr because I know jack squat about medicine - if you believe you know best why bother even going? Why would you believe an advert _selling_ you a product over a medical proffesional who has made it his/her lifes work to help heal the sick? Yeah, advertisers have your best interests at heart - the massive profits are just a happy by-product of that! ---
**Author:** ![WILLASS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/54ee81/32.png) [@WILLASS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WILLASS)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-us-what-do-the-uk-and-canada-need-with-enemies/507433/50 "2009-08-24T12:13:41Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > It’s bizarre to the rest of the world, but the flag waving always works in that culture. They even sing the national anthem and clutch their chest at town hall meeting discussing the issue . . . Which is why I agree with the late, great Bill Hicks on the matter of patriotism - it’s generally just a bullshit way of whipping up the voters into a frenzy because to disagree with the point would make you ‘Un-American’ whereas I always thought that blindly following a leader purely because they wave a flag at you and shouting down any rational discussion would be the really ‘Un-American’ approach because of, you know, free speech and all that. How I wish I’d put it (Bill Hicks quote): > [@](#): > > I hate patriotism, I can’t stand it, man, it makes me fucking sick. It’s a round world, last time I checked, okay? Y’know what I mean? I hate patriotism. > > In fact, that’s how we can stop patriotism, I think. Instead of puttin’ stars and stripes on our flag, we should put pictures of our parents fucking! > > Gather people 'round that flag, and see your dad hunched over your mom’s big 4x4 butt, see if any boot ‘n rally mentality can circle around that little fuckin’ image. > > “God… damn! I’m out of here. Fuck it.” > > –“That your mom?” > > “Shut up! Let’s go garden…” ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-us-what-do-the-uk-and-canada-need-with-enemies/507433/51 "2009-08-24T12:16:55Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Can anyone advise which US newspaper achieved this really quite epic level of fail? Investor’s Business Daily. The editorial is [here](http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=333933006516877), though they’ve removed the bit about Hawking. ---
**Author:** ![legalsnugs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@legalsnugs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/legalsnugs)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-us-what-do-the-uk-and-canada-need-with-enemies/507433/52 "2009-08-24T12:28:59Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > The man himself speaks: > > [tollbit-host.com](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/6017878/Stephen-Hawking-I-would-not-be-alive-without-the-NHS.html) > > "“I wouldn’t be here today if it were not for the NHS,” he said. “I have received a large amount of high-quality treatment without which I would not have survived.” > > An American newspaper subsequently used Prof Hawking as an example of the deficiencies of the NHS. “People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn’t have a chance in the UK, where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless,” it claimed. " > > Can anyone advise which US newspaper achieved this really quite epic level of fail? [Link](http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_08/019457.php) > [@](#): > > The _Investor’s Business Daily_ ran a bizarre editorial [on July 31, 2009], arguing that Democratic proposals would punish the elderly and the disabled. “People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn’t have a chance in the U.K., where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless,” the IBD said. After the huge mistake was pointed out to them, the IBD amended the article and added: “Editor’s Note: This version corrects the original editorial which implied that physicist Stephen Hawking, a professor at the University of Cambridge, did not live in the UK.” “Implied.” _snerk_ Now the article ([here](http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=333933006516877)) focuses strictly on the government’s plans to kill granny. Still bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-us-what-do-the-uk-and-canada-need-with-enemies/507433/53 "2009-08-24T12:29:19Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Because you’d have to somehow think that even at Canadian pricing Pharma companies weren’t enjoying a profit margin far beyond any other industry, even allowing for R&D costs. I got no dog in this fight, but you gotta cite for your whine about Pharma companies enjoying a profit margin far beyond other industries? I look at return on equity, and I see Pfizer = 13% Novartis = 16% Microsoft = 38% Exxon = 38% ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-us-what-do-the-uk-and-canada-need-with-enemies/507433/54 "2009-08-24T12:39:02Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Let’s put the shoe on the other foot for a moment. Let’s pretend that the situation is reversed, and that Canada has stupidly expensive medicine and it’s really cheap in the US. > > Canada advocates that medicine cost more in the US so that the price “evens out” a wee bit. But people in the US will end up paying significantly more, and people in Canada won’t end up paying significantly less. > > Would you honestly, truthfully, genuinely say “Gosh, that’s fair. I’m quite happy to pay even more money for something that’s already expensive just so people in a neighbouring country don’t feel so bad about the situation”? No, I wouldn’t happy about it at all. Why should Canada give a shit? Maybe part of the reason that Canada gets cheap drugs is that the US pays more. Let’s assume this is true. Why is the US morally obligated to continue this? **jsgoddess** apparently thinks we are. Why? I understand that you don’t want to pay more money for drugs with no benefit to you. Neither do I. Here’s a plan that, if it works, will stop the subsidy. If high drug prices in the US aren’t a subsidy for Canada, then it won’t hurt anything. If they are, then Canada will no longer enjoy lower drug prices at US expense. So? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-us-what-do-the-uk-and-canada-need-with-enemies/507433/55 "2009-08-24T12:51:33Z")
> [@WILLASS](#): > > Just a quick ignorance fighting question but I’ve always wanted to know how the pharma company’s advertising works in the US? Do they advertise drugs that you can only get on prescription? If this is true do you wind up with people requesting certain brand drugs from Drs? Do Drs promote certain brands (possible ‘kickbacks’ involved?) To a Britisher used to a ‘you get what you’re given’ system this seems highly strange and kind of pointless. Why not just take what your Dr suggests? Yes, we do have advertisements for drugs that are available only by prescription. Typically, there will be images of an attractive, fit, late-middle-aged couple smiling and strolling across some meadow or windswept beach while a voiceover describes the amazing benefits of the drug. The voice lowers to a soft monotone and lists the potential side effects, sometimes including death. Then there’s a tag line at the end, something like “ask your doctor if Gleemonex is right for you.” ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-us-what-do-the-uk-and-canada-need-with-enemies/507433/56 "2009-08-24T13:33:32Z")
Um, American’s pay more for their meds because they have a ‘for profit’ model for health care. Because they are too scared of the word socialism to think straight. They have ‘socialized’ education, fire services, police services and yet can’t see what a capitalists wet dream it is for health care to be ‘for profit’. Americans deserve the system they have as long as they allow their nation to be ruled by the, always effective, politics of fear. Used to prioritize profit above caring for their own sick and dying. There are a lot of players in this debate. Powerful and moneyed players who are much more interested in frightening people and muddying the waters than helping sick people access care. Personally, I think most Americans are intelligent enough to think their way through this issue themselves, weighing the advantages and disadvantages successfully. But I doubt that will happen as they are overpoweringly, coweringly afraid of anything ‘socialist’. I believe, in the end, that will rule. In a country with socialized fire, ambulance, police, and education, no less. It is to laugh. And, it is to weep. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-us-what-do-the-uk-and-canada-need-with-enemies/507433/57 "2009-08-24T13:52:00Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > I got no dog in this fight, but you gotta cite for your whine about Pharma companies enjoying a profit margin far beyond other industries? Yup: > **[The Truth About Drug Companies](https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2004/09/truth-about-drug-companies-2/)** > > The author calls the pharmaceutical industry a ?vast marketing machine? that thrives on monopoly rights and public-sponsored research but produces few innovative drugs. “Also, their profits are enormously high. Until last year, [they were] the number one industry in the U.S. in terms of profits. In 2002, the top 10 American [pharmaceutical] companies in the Fortune 500 made 17 percent of their sales in profits, whereas they spent only 14 percent on R&D. The median for the other Fortune 500 companies was between 3 percent of sales.” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-us-what-do-the-uk-and-canada-need-with-enemies/507433/58 "2009-08-24T14:12:12Z")
Meh. The pharma companies _have_ to charge more in the U.S. Buying congressmen ain’t cheap. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-us-what-do-the-uk-and-canada-need-with-enemies/507433/59 "2009-08-24T14:36:44Z")
You’d be surprised. I bought mine for pennies on the dollar- prices are coming down in this economy, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-us-what-do-the-uk-and-canada-need-with-enemies/507433/60 "2009-08-24T15:00:33Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, I wouldn’t happy about it at all. Why should Canada give a shit? > > Maybe part of the reason that Canada gets cheap drugs is that the US pays more. Let’s assume this is true. Why is the US morally obligated to continue this? **jsgoddess** apparently thinks we are. Why? > > I understand that you don’t want to pay more money for drugs with no benefit to you. Neither do I. Here’s a plan that, if it works, will stop the subsidy. If high drug prices in the US aren’t a subsidy for Canada, then it won’t hurt anything. If they are, then Canada will no longer enjoy lower drug prices at US expense. > > So? > > Regards, > Shodan It isn’t that simple. Way it works is this: The basis for making money in the pharma industry is the ownership and marketing of intellectual property in drugs. This involves ownership of limited monopolies (patent rights) to sell drugs in a particular country, and the marketing of those drugs to the general public and physicians. Of the two forms of marketing, marketing to the general public is by far the most costly (TV ads, glossy magazines, etc.). Governments grant patent monopolies to encourage innovation. Owning a monopoly provides good basis for charging monopoly prices. In order to avoid abuses, governments set certain terms on these monopolies, too. There is no such thing as a truly “free market” in drugs, as a patent is by definition a restriction on the market. In return for granting patent monopolies, governments set terms. In Canada, these terms include an elaborate mechanism for setting maximum prices - The Patent Medicine Prices Review Board (PMPRB). In addition, given that many Canadians (not all - over 65 or on assistance) are publicly insured for drug costs, public plans (having immense bargaining power) bargain for price reductions in return for placing drugs (patented or not) on their “Formularies”. Private plans in the US do the same, but lack the same amount of bargaining power. In spite of all of this, drug sellers _still_ make big profits in Canada, even though the Canadian prices tend to be a lot lower. How can this be? Well, one reason is that _marketing_ costs are considerably lower in Canada. As previously stated, in Canada there is _basically no direct to patient marketing of prescription-only (“Schedule F”) drugs_. Marketing to doctors tends to be controlled as well through semi-governmental organizations like the Pharmaceutical Advertising Advisory Board (PAAB) and voluntary industry associations like Rx&D. Thus, while drugs _cost_ less to the public, overall costs of marketing are lower as well. It would be interesting to compare how much US firms spend on “promotion” vs. how much they spend on “R&D” of new drugs (excluding the amounts spend on so-called “me too” drugs designed to extend or “evergreen” patents, which should righfully be added to the “promotional” spending). It seems odd to me, to say the least, and counterintuitive, that a bunch of gov’t regulations and restrictions leads somehow to a more efficient outcome. I rather suspect that the reason is the existence of the patent system, which already distorts the “free market” something fierce. The drug companys and those who support them tend to say that the higher prices in the US are necessary to support R&D of new drugs. I do not myself think this is the case: more an example of a system seriously out of wack, where the monopoly power is unchecked and unbalanced. If the US adopted the Canadian system, I rather suspect that prices in the US would fall and R&D would not suffer. Alternatively, the US should adopt a _genuine_ free market and get rid of patent protections. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-us-what-do-the-uk-and-canada-need-with-enemies/507433.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-friends-like-us-what-do-the-uk-and-canada-need-with-enemies/507433.md?page=4)