# with liberty and justice for all **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 25, 2006, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-liberty-and-justice-for-all/349873 "2006-03-25T18:40:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2006, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-liberty-and-justice-for-all/349873/21 "2006-03-27T23:38:02Z")
> [@Larry Borgia](#): > > If “peaceful quest” simply means “life, liberty and the pusuit of happiness” why not stick with the original phrase, since it’s clearer. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. > [@rejefferson](#): > > If you do not understand that many are still denied and prohibited from peaceful quest and pursuit of happiness, I do not know how to remove your blinders. In that case, I am sorry to say that I understand why you do not. Define “broke”. > [@Larry Borgia](#): > > If LLatPoH were emblazoned on every courhouse it would strike me as empty ceremony, but not at all objectionable, since that phrase is, in fact, what this country was founded upon, not the 10C. (italics mine) I call the new translation the PtL – the pledge to liberty. > [@John Mace](#): > > What you are proposing is easily recognized as a Libertarian ideal. The problem is, the US was not founded as a Libertarian ideal. Also, you are confusing the Declaration of Independence with the Constitution. The former is about severing ties with a country, the latter is about how to govern a new one. We’re a Constitutional Republic with a representative democracy for a government. _I personally think many of the founders had a fairly libertarian idea in mind for the federal government_, but not for the states. If you think otherwise, you are mistaken. Define founded. The Constitution was our second attempt to put our founding principles into effect. We have since refined that attempt 27 times. If you think none of our founding fathers understood the full promise of liberty, you are mistaken. Maybe it is time to try again. Do you remember slavery and jim crow? We know so much more now than we did when the Constitution was written. Yet, even now we are fighting and dying for liberty. Excuse me, I mean less tyranny. It seems to me that something’s broke. The fix just seems so obvious to me. > [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Seems to me posting a succinct _With Liberty and Justice for All_ would fit the bill perfectly, though as has been pointed out, the signs themselves have only symbolic value and aside from the make-work value of their creation and erection, serve no practical purpose whatsoever. blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. > What about the county that doesn’t want to comply because they don’t want to spend the money altering the facade of their historic courthouse, which they feel is just fine the way it is? b.b.b.b.b. > But suppose you get 100% compliance and yet the incidence of peaceful questing does not change? b.b.b.b.b. (blahs mine). 🙂 Obviously we also need hire interpreters as it seems no one understands that these are our founding principles and that all legislation and justice gains its legitimacy based solely on these principles. There is no need to incur official government expense. I know that most do not understand, but the government is we the people. If someone happens to be in a courthouse tomorrow, make a nice sign of the PtL and present it to a judge. Tell the judge you wish to place the sign for exhibit on behalf of both plaintiff and defendant. Explain to the judge what it signifies. Make note if anyone objects and report back to this thread. I believe that even simple ideas can cause a drastic change - I call it the butterfly effect. This idea might even cause the south to consider another succession. ItS r~ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2006, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-liberty-and-justice-for-all/349873/22 "2006-03-27T23:48:27Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > Define founded. The Constitution was our second attempt to put our founding principles into effect. We have since refined that attempt 27 times. > If you think none of our founding fathers understood the full promise of liberty, you are mistaken. > Maybe it is time to try again. Do you remember slavery and jim crow? We know so much more now than we did when the Constitution was written. Yet, even now we are fighting and dying for liberty. Excuse me, I mean less tyranny. > It seems to me that something’s broke. The fix just seems so obvious to me. That’s a completely different thesis than you started out with, and a much more interesting debate, if you ask me. May I suggest that you frame debates more along those lines instead of posting enigmatic phrases and then lecturing people because they don’t udnerstand them? At any rate, I think posting signs on courthouses is a complete waste of time and won’t even begin to accomplish what you want. The more you post something like that, the less people will see it. It just becomes part of the backgorund. PS: You might want to think of another term besideds “butterfly effect”. That one’s already taken. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-liberty-and-justice-for-all/349873/23 "2006-03-28T00:00:48Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > Obviously we also need hire interpreters as it seems no one understands that these are our founding principles and that all legislation and justice gains its legitimacy based solely on these principles. So I’m sure you’ll be easily able to cite occurances of the phrase “peaeful quest” in the Federalist Papers, the writings of Thomas Jefferson, the works of Thomas Paine and similar documents. > [@](#): > > This idea might even cause the south to consider another succession. And that would be… good, or something? Personally, I think posting “Cry the yellow freedom!” would work as well. ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-liberty-and-justice-for-all/349873/24 "2006-03-28T00:23:43Z")
**John** : Sorry about the confusion. Let us see if anyone reports on the courthouse quest. As I said, I am always looking for better and fewer words. Please share with us your best words. The masses may be ignorant, but most have the ability to understand these truths; once they are translated. BTW: It is the same effect raised to the next dimension. ItS Peace through Liberty r~ ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-liberty-and-justice-for-all/349873/25 "2006-03-28T00:37:13Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > **John** : Sorry about the confusion. > > Let us see if anyone reports on the courthouse quest. As I said, I am always looking for better and fewer words. Please share with us your best words. The masses may be ignorant, but most have the ability to understand these truths; once they are translated. I think what you need to do, rw, is explain, clearly, what the heck you mean by “peaceful quest.” To most of us, “quest” is a word generally used in fantasy novels. ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-liberty-and-justice-for-all/349873/26 "2006-03-28T00:40:01Z")
**Bryan** Again, I am sorry for any confusion. This is a [translation (#2)](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=translation), a two worded synonym, if you will, of the word liberty. You tell me, how many times must the word “liberty” appear in your historical documents before you accept it for others? ItS r~ ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-liberty-and-justice-for-all/349873/27 "2006-03-28T00:46:12Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > These words are not only symbolic of US; it is the spirit in these words that gives our government legitimacy. :dubious: Mmm . . . No, it isn’t, **rw.** I think you’ll find most people nowadays regard our government as “legitimate” because it is democratic; while lawyers and historians regard it as “legitimate” for the same reasons other governments are considered legitimate (mainly, general consensus and acceptance of its legitimacy). > [@rwjefferson](#): > > Any law or authority that contradicts this spirit is not constitutional, no matter the words. I very much doubt you will find any SC justice or any constitutional scholar who supports that view. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-liberty-and-justice-for-all/349873/28 "2006-03-28T00:48:54Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > It seems to me that something’s broke. The fix just seems so obvious to me. A new set of slogans is not a fix. It’s not even a clumsy half-assed attempt at a fix. ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-liberty-and-justice-for-all/349873/29 "2006-03-28T01:11:27Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I think what you need to do, rw, is explain, clearly, what the heck you mean by “peaceful quest.” To most of us, “quest” is a word generally used in fantasy novels. > [@rwjefferson](#): > > Why should a specific activity make a difference as long as it is peaceful and does not threaten another’s peace? We all speak our own tongue, but few try to understand others. I thank you for trying to understand mine. The important word is peaceful. Your immediate quest is whatever you choose to do right now. Make it peaceful. My fantasy happens to be world peace. Do you care to join? What is your translation? All are equal in \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_. ItS r~ P.S. “All are equal in peaceful activity” just does not work. It has too many syllables; there is no rhythm; it is not poetic. We the people need a chant. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-liberty-and-justice-for-all/349873/30 "2006-03-28T01:18:00Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > You tell me, how many times must the word “liberty” appear in your historical documents before you accept it for others? I didn’t ask about the word “liberty”, I asked about the words “peaceful quest”. Was that unclear? Sorry. I’ll try to make it clearer. You… say… “peaceful quest”… good. In… old… old… old… words… written… by… guys… who… make… America. Me… say… “where?” If… words… “peaceful quest”… NOT… appear… in… good… old… America… maybe… they… not… good… choice… because… now… time… guys… not… understand… good…and… need… explain. O… kay…? Try answering the questions that _are_ being asked instead of making up crap in an effort to seem smug and condescending, since you haven’t established the credentials for either. Besides, they’re not “my” historical documents, as I’m not actually an American. ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-liberty-and-justice-for-all/349873/31 "2006-03-28T01:28:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :dubious: Mmm . . . No, it isn’t, **rw.** I think you’ll find most people nowadays regard our government as “legitimate” because it is democratic; while lawyers and historians regard it as “legitimate” for the same reasons other governments are considered legitimate (mainly, general consensus and acceptance of its legitimacy). I very much doubt you will find any SC justice or any constitutional scholar who supports that view. I am sad to say that you are probably correct. You do not need to remind me that lawyers and pharisees have bound liberty with their words and constitutions from the beginning. > [@rwjefferson](#): > > Do you remember slavery and jim crow Obviously not. What did your constitutional scholars say before these were struck down? r~ ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-liberty-and-justice-for-all/349873/32 "2006-03-28T01:48:12Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > > [@rwjefferson](#): > > > > Obviously we also need hire interpreters as it seems no one understands that these are our founding principles and that all legislation and justice gains its legitimacy based solely on these principles. > > So I’m sure you’ll be easily able to cite occurances of the phrase “peaeful quest” in the Federalist Papers, the writings of Thomas Jefferson, the works of Thomas Paine and similar documents. Please tell me which foreign language you speak where “these principles” translate into specific words. r~ ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-liberty-and-justice-for-all/349873/33 "2006-03-28T01:49:40Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > You do not need to remind me that lawyers and pharisees have bound liberty with their words and constitutions from the beginning. Damn their oily hides! How dare they use _words?!_ That dog won’t hunt! _CRY THE YELLOW FREEDOM!!!_ [SUB]In case the above slogan needs to be explained, suffice it to say that “yellow” is a color on the rainbow between orange and green. Any further requests for clarification will be reported to the New Liberty Committee for processing and extermination.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-liberty-and-justice-for-all/349873/34 "2006-03-28T02:07:32Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > Please tell me which foreign language you speak where “these principles” translate into specific words. > r~ I’m speaking English. What _you’re_ using is a mystery. I asked where, if anywhere, the phrase “peaceful quest” appeared in revolution-era writings. If it does not, would it be fair to say that it is _not_ a phrase associated with that era, thus it forms no emotional linkage to some idealized time you seem to be describing that existed before freedom in America was hijacked by lawyers and, heh, pharisees? Does a phrase that needs to be explained make for a good slogan? I expect not. I suppose one could translate Franklin’s _Early to bed and early to rise makes a man healthy, wealthy, and wise_ to _Get to sleep before Letterman, wake up before Couric and you’ll feel good, get rich and be smart_ but it’s a safe bet that few who read the translated version will immediately connect it to the original. It doesn’t mean they are ignorant - just that a pointless layer of obfuscation has been put in their way. Creating such obfuscation is hardly an accomplishment of any merit, unless you somehow _like_ confusing people as a means to feeling superior to them. Why doesn’t _With Liberty and Justice for All_ work as a slogan? It’s familiar, comprehensible and short. It flows nicely and expresses a noble sentiment without ambiguity or qualification. If any slogan was to be carved into a courthouse, I can’t offhand think of a better one. Well, except _Cry the yellow freedom_. That rocks. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-liberty-and-justice-for-all/349873/35 "2006-03-28T02:19:19Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > We all speak our own tongue, but few try to understand others. I thank you for trying to understand mine. The important word is peaceful. Your immediate quest is whatever you choose to do right now. Make it peaceful. My fantasy happens to be world peace. Do you care to join? > > What is your translation? > All are equal in \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_. I don’t understand why you need a modifying phrase, rw. I like: “All are equal.” What’s wrong with that? > [@](#): > > We the people need a chant. Gosh, I think the LAST thing anyone needs is a new slogan. Slogans, chants and buzzwords are the tools of tyrants. What we need is for people to _question_ what’s written on the courthouse wall. ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-liberty-and-justice-for-all/349873/36 "2006-03-28T03:03:09Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Why doesn’t _With Liberty and Justice for All_ work as a slogan? You tell me. > [@rwjefferson](#): > > If you do not understand that many are still denied and prohibited from peaceful quest and pursuit of happiness, I do not know how to remove your blinders. In that case, I am sorry to say that I understand why you do not. Why is it that some are still denied liberty and justice if that old slogan works so well? I have stated as clearly as possible that the pledge of liberty is a new translation of the founding principles. I am sorry if you are still confused. The words “peaceful quest” are not in the founding documents; the equivalent word “liberty” is. **Rick** “All are equal” has not worked either. However, please tell me how a tyrant could use the PtL as a tool. If you take your time and re-read this thread, I think you will find that potential tyrants tend to fear these words and this spirit. Also, please take your time in responding. I will be back later tomorrow. Peace r~ ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-liberty-and-justice-for-all/349873/37 "2006-03-28T04:11:56Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > I have stated as clearly as possible that the pledge of liberty is a new translation of the founding principles. What exactly do you mean by “the founding principles”? Read the Preamble to the U.S. Constitution. There is mention of “the blessings of liberty,” but the rest is about more **activist** functions of government – justice, tranquility, defense, and general welfare. Things that can only be achieved by levying taxes. Very heavy taxes. And things that can only be achieved by, in some respects and in some circumstances, valuing equality more highly than liberty. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-liberty-and-justice-for-all/349873/38 "2006-03-28T04:19:11Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > You **Rick** “All are equal” has not worked either. Well, of course not. It’s just a platitude. Platitudes only work to make us feel good. They accomplish nothing, and \*\*no words in any language you can put together will work, either. \*\* > [@](#): > > However, please tell me how a tyrant could use the PtL as a tool. If you take your time and re-read this thread, I think you will find that potential tyrants tend to fear these words and this spirit. Tyrants never fear slogans and platitudes. All the worst tyrants have had lots of slogans and one-liners about justice, freedom, the glory of the people, you name it. You’re not going to come up with a set of five-to-ten word slogans that express anything interesting or useful, or that change anything worth changing. Wordsmithing never freed anyone. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-liberty-and-justice-for-all/349873/39 "2006-03-28T04:28:32Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Things that can only be achieved by levying taxes. Very heavy taxes. Just how heavy are we talking, hoss? I didn’t come the that conclusion, and I read the same document you did. > [@](#): > > And things that can only be achieved by, in some respects and in some circumstances, valuing equality more highly than liberty. False dichotomy. And a dangerous one at that. Just as dangerous as the folks telling us to value security over liberty. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-liberty-and-justice-for-all/349873/40 "2006-03-28T04:37:36Z")
> [@](#): > > We the people need a chant. I always liked this one: “All we are saying is ‘Give Peace a Chance.’” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-liberty-and-justice-for-all/349873.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-liberty-and-justice-for-all/349873.md?page=3)