# With no religion most wars would not have been fought. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2001, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-no-religion-most-wars-would-not-have-been-fought/86682 "2001-10-10T23:23:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Osip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4491bb/32.png) [@Osip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Osip)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-no-religion-most-wars-would-not-have-been-fought/86682/1 "2001-10-10T23:23:46Z")
Ok in the effort to not hijack the “who would you kill…” thread in GD I have started this little gem. Jmatthewb started it off with this: > [@](#): > > \*\*Ok i know you said no religous figures but Oh hell with it. POINT. IMAGINE NO RELIGION JOHN LENNON with no relgion most wars would not have been fought. I guess this would bring a over-population issue wouldnt it. My vote still goes for jesus or mohhamed. \*\* I of course disagreed here: > [@](#): > > \*\*I find your theory flawed. You imply that the removal of religion would prevent wars. Not a chance. We as Humans have always fought and had wars. Were they all caused by religion? No, They may have claimed religious reasons to justify their actions. > Wars are fought to protect and or promote ideas and a way of life. Let’s look at some of the wars the US has participated in. > Gulf war: Iraq attacked for the oil fields, we fought to attempt to promote an economic stability in the region (to our advantage) > Vietnam: We fought to “defend democracy” of course calling them “godless Commies” made a good sound bite. > Korea: more of the same. (I am not real familiar with the Korean war) > WW2: We fought an expansionist tyrant. > WW1: can’t see religion being a large cause of this one either. > Civil War. Oh yeah, religion was a Big factor here > > Anyway, Religion is not the cause of war, Human nature is. > It does on the other hand make a nice rallying cry. \*\* Jmattewb comes back again with: > [@](#): > > \*\*I did not say all wars. I said most wars. If you look into it closly you will find religion lurking behind most motives. \*\* My final reply before starting this was: > [@](#): > > Again I disagree. Most wars were not fought over religion. > Let’s cover a few of the more popular wars. > Vietnam (nope) > The french in Vietnam (nope) > Korea(nope) > WW2 (nope) > WW1 (nope) > Crimean war (nope) > The many wars and military actions of England durring the spead of colinization (boer (might be mispelled) actions in Inda and so on (nope) > The civil wars in almost every south american country (nope) > The American Civil war (nope) > The War of 1812 (nope) > The Revolutionary war (nope) > The French indian war (nope) > The many times the French and Eglish duked it out… I see no main religious reason there. > I never recall Rome going to war in the name of their gods, only for expansion and conquest. > Gengas Khan and his westward expansion (nope) > The crusades Absolutely! > If you look closer still, you will find human nature, and the quest of power glory and wealth the root of most motives > leading to violence and war. \*\* So, what is everyone elses thoughts on this? Is Religion the main or major factor for the start of **most** wars? Is Human Nature and the quest for power glory and wealth the real motivation behind most wars? Osip PS. I have already realised I ment to refer to: Revolutionary wars in south america, not civil wars. ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-no-religion-most-wars-would-not-have-been-fought/86682/2 "2001-10-10T23:46:50Z")
Break it down far enough, and the reason for war is the desire for more cows. No, I don’t have a cite on that. I await someone to defend the position that religion is either directly or indirectly the cause of most wars. ---
**Author:** ![Asylum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/53a042/32.png) [@Asylum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asylum)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-no-religion-most-wars-would-not-have-been-fought/86682/3 "2001-10-10T23:51:28Z")
For another good example consider the USSR’s invasion of Afghanistan in 1979. These were the godless Soviets after all. You’re absolutely right, people will always find a reason to kill each other and where religion is used it’s just a convenient excuse. For almost every war where religion was used as a justification there was usually found a more sinister underlying reason. Let’s just hope we can get away from having it be an institution. ---
**Author:** ![Ferrous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Ferrous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferrous)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-no-religion-most-wars-would-not-have-been-fought/86682/4 "2001-10-10T23:57:04Z")
Actually, I think it’s debatable whether even the Crusades were motivated primarily by religion. Sure, the official reason was to “liberate the Holy Land”, but the reason a lot of the barons got involved was in hope of loot, and control of important trade routes. Don’t have a cite, but I imagine I can find one, if anyone wants to debate it. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-no-religion-most-wars-would-not-have-been-fought/86682/5 "2001-10-11T00:09:36Z")
The Crusades were also a good way to get rid of a whole lot of guys who had spent their entire lives training to kill lots of people, and who were feeling antsy. Sending them off to kill the heathen kept them from killing their neighbors, and got loot and power besides. (My source for that is Barbara Tuchman’s _A distant mirror_, but she put it in more scholarly terms.) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-no-religion-most-wars-would-not-have-been-fought/86682/6 "2001-10-11T00:11:08Z")
Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t the Crimean War caused by the Tsar claiming that Orthodox Christians in the Ottoman Empire were being abused by the Turks? ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-no-religion-most-wars-would-not-have-been-fought/86682/7 "2001-10-11T01:14:01Z")
No, the Crimean War was caused by the Russians’ desire for control of the entrance to their warm water ports in the Black Sea. To do that they needed to take control of the straits between the Med Sea and the Black Sea from the Ottomans. The Allies wanted to check growing Russian power so they ganged up on her. The pretext given for war was a dispute between Orthodox and Catholics over some holy site in Palestine. However, when that question was resolved without Russia getting control of what it wanted diplomatically, they invaded anyway. ---
**Author:** ![NutWrench](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nutwrench/32/20193_2.png) [@NutWrench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NutWrench)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-no-religion-most-wars-would-not-have-been-fought/86682/8 "2001-10-11T01:17:19Z")
With regards to the OP, at the basic level, wars are fought over territory and resources. You could also argue that we fight wars over religion, but religion is just an excuse we use to steal other peoples territory and resources. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-no-religion-most-wars-would-not-have-been-fought/86682/9 "2001-10-11T03:09:27Z")
I’ve always been of the opinion that wars are usually fought over the results of the previous war. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-no-religion-most-wars-would-not-have-been-fought/86682/10 "2001-10-11T03:34:51Z")
In quite a few wars, while religion may not be the underlining cause of the conflict, it was most certainly the fuel that kept the warriors going when they needed a reason to kill strangers. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-no-religion-most-wars-would-not-have-been-fought/86682/11 "2001-10-11T03:59:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Czarcasm \* > \*\*In quite a few wars, while religion may not be the underlining cause of the conflict, it was most certainly the fuel that kept the warriors going when they needed a reason to kill strangers. \*\* What percentage of wars are we talking about when you say “quite a few.” Given the astounding number of conflicts that have occurred in the history of the world, yeah, quite a few used religion as a reason to keep fighting. However, I think that in a large majority, the thing that kept people going was either plunder or nationalism. Honor and loot were a good reason for a lot of people to keep going. I think the idea of holy wars was simply a way of giving the war a higher justification than the base motives that kept everyone going. An example is (are? were?) the conquistadores. They were motivated by the plunder, but justified the pillaging by saying that they needed to convert the savages because it sounded nicer. Without the religious aspect I’m sure they would have found another reason and kept doing it anyways. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-no-religion-most-wars-would-not-have-been-fought/86682/12 "2001-10-11T04:08:38Z")
Here’s another example of religious differences being used to inflame passions against an opponent. British passage of the Quebec Act in 1774 infuriated the American colonists and is considered one of the sparks that set off the Revolutionary War. One key provision of the Act that was highly resented was the order for tolerance of the Catholic religion. According to Barbara Tuchman in _The March of Folly_ “The Inquisition was forecast for Pennsylvania…the whore of Babylon invoked, a ‘Popish’ army and ‘Popish hordes’ pictured…as ready to subvert the liberties of the Protestant colonies.” Religious differences aren’t necessary to start a war. But they can come in awfully handy. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-no-religion-most-wars-would-not-have-been-fought/86682/13 "2001-10-11T04:39:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jackmannii \* > British passage of the Quebec Act in 1774 infuriated the American colonists and is considered one of the sparks that set off the Revolutionary War. Which is why it was invoked as such so frequently by the founding fathers, right? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-no-religion-most-wars-would-not-have-been-fought/86682/14 "2001-10-11T07:36:40Z")
I think of religion and war more intertwined at a basic level. King: “Go, charge those spears!” Soldiers: “No way!” King: “Look, if you do, there will be an afterlife, so you won’t really permanently die” Soldiers: “I dunno…” King: “It will be a great afterlife, paradise, much better than this world!” Now, would they be so willing to charge the spears, guns, forts, etc. if they thought their lives would cease to be? Would they even join the army in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-no-religion-most-wars-would-not-have-been-fought/86682/15 "2001-10-11T07:51:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by HubZilla \* > \*\*I think of religion and war more intertwined at a basic level. > > King: “Go, charge those spears!” > Soldiers: “No way!” > King: “Look, if you do, there will be an afterlife, so you won’t really permanently die” > Soldiers: “I dunno…” > King: “It will be a great afterlife, paradise, much better than this world!” > > Now, would they be so willing to charge the spears, guns, forts, etc. if they thought their lives would cease to be? Would they even join the army in the first place? \*\* I was going to say something related to that - we may still fight wars, but I bet there would be a lot more morale problems. People are a lot more likely to risk their lives when they think they have an afterlife waiting for them. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-no-religion-most-wars-would-not-have-been-fought/86682/16 "2001-10-11T12:56:09Z")
Then why did the Soviets fight in World War II? The USSR was officially atheist - no one was promising their soldiers an afterlife. Religion is sometimes used as an excuse for war, but usually there are other motives - territory, politics, plunder, ill will. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-no-religion-most-wars-would-not-have-been-fought/86682/17 "2001-10-11T13:02:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by furt \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Jackmannii \* > > British passage of the Quebec Act in 1774 infuriated the American colonists and is considered one of the sparks that set off the Revolutionary War. > > Which is why it was invoked as such so frequently by the founding fathers, right? 😕 \*\* Well, yes. The Quebec Act was, after all, one of the “Intolerable Acts” cited by Americans as a reason for revolution, and which led directly to the First Continental Congress. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-no-religion-most-wars-would-not-have-been-fought/86682/18 "2001-10-11T14:55:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RickJay \* > \*\*Well, yes. The Quebec Act was, after all, one of the “Intolerable Acts” cited by Americans as a reason for revolution, and which led directly to the First Continental Congress. \*\* I’m not convinced. After all, Maryland was a safe haven for Catholics and no one seemed to have a problem with it. Quebec Act may have been considered one of the intolerable acts, but I have a feeling that the other ones (Quartering Act, the Massachusetts Bay Regulating Act, Boston Port Act, and the Impartial Administration of Justice Act) were more influential. After all, most of these injustices were eventually countered in the original Constitution or Bill of Rights. If the idea of religious liberty was so anathema to the Founding Fathers, why would they protect it in the Bill of Rights? ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-no-religion-most-wars-would-not-have-been-fought/86682/19 "2001-10-11T14:59:00Z")
Oops, I meant to add something else. The real reason that the Quebec Act pissed off the colonists was because it extended Canada’s border to the Ohio River and effectively cut off the original western boundaries of Connecticut, Massachusetts and Vermont. [www.lexrex.com/enlightened/laws/intolerable.htm](http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/laws/intolerable.htm) ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-no-religion-most-wars-would-not-have-been-fought/86682/20 "2001-10-11T18:56:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lno \* > **I await someone to defend the position that religion is either directly or indirectly the cause of most wars.** The cause? No way. An _excuse_? Hell yeah. But to be fair, if there was no religion, I’m sure the folks responsible for starting wars would have found some other excuse anyway. “God” is just a historically handy convenience. And I’m speaking as an atheist. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-no-religion-most-wars-would-not-have-been-fought/86682.md?page=2)