# With trepidation, Benghazi **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2014, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535 "2014-05-02T20:30:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/401 "2014-05-10T14:02:20Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > This is my favorite point of hypocrisy in this whole affair. > > Republicans in congress two years out from Benghazi: “Have the perpetrators of Benghazi been arrested or killed? No? Shameful.” > > … as opposed to … > > The Republican president six months after the original 9-11 regarding bin Laden (you know, the perpetrator)): “He’s just a person who’s been marginalized. … I don’t know where he is. I really just don’t spend that much time on him, to be honest with you.” > > And just to add a cherry on top, when the subsequent Democratic administration actually kills the guy _ **ten years later** _ … “eh, so what, it’s not like he killed him personally; any president would have authorized the operation.” Let me ask you this: let’s say you were President during that time, and you couldn’t find OBL. Would you you publicly start that, “Jeeze, we can’t find him. We’re doing everything we can and he’s just outsmarted us”, making him even more of a hero to those who were fans of his. Or would you maybe do what Bush did and publicly minimize the importance of the figurehead while behind the scenes you were doing everything you can to find that motherfucker. I hope it would be the latter. I’m no fan of Bush, but doing that was the wise thing to do. But it is entertaining that no criticism can be made of Obama without the “Oh, yeah, we’ll how about Bush?!!!” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/402 "2014-05-10T14:43:03Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The other “action” that needs explaining regards Susan Rice and the talking points she delivered on 9/12. It is crystal clear that for some reason the White House was putting forth the incorrect narrative that the video caused a spontaneous demonstration that caused the death of 4 Americans. Anyone who does not believe that the administration was doing that for days is simply not paying attention. It’s not “for some reason” – we know the reason. They put forth that narrative (cautiously, with a lot of statements like ‘we don’t know for sure, and we won’t until the investigation is complete’) because that was what the intelligence agencies were telling them. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/403 "2014-05-10T15:18:19Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > But it is entertaining that no criticism can be made of Obama without the “Oh, yeah, we’ll how about Bush?!!!” :rolleyes: “Bush did it too” is not grounds to exonerate Obama if he fucks up, but it’s perfectly valid to compare the phony outrage from Republicans over minor stuff from Obama to their silence over major stuff from Bush. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/404 "2014-05-10T17:19:20Z")
Shouldn’t this thread be in the Elections forum? That’s what it’s really about, after all. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/405 "2014-05-10T17:34:23Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > This is a perfectly valid point—as far as the _first_ attack. The first one happened at about 8:30, but there was another attack about 6 hours later, which resulted in 2 of the 4 deaths. That’s one thing that people would like an answer to. The U.S. policy is usually to never leave a man behind. So, it appears that someone might have given an order to stand down. Either that, or no one was mobilized to head to the area drink the first attack. Again, we have a right to know those answers. I’d say everyone serving in the military or who has a loved one serving in the military does. > > [snipped] Except that one of the two deaths at 4:30 **WAS** one of the would-be rescuers. Glen Doherty was in Tripoli during the first attack; he and a group of CIA types rushed to Benghazi to reinforce the annex. Had there been no response, there would not have been four deaths, because he wouldn’t have been there. (You can argue about whether the number of deaths would have been higher or lower without that reinforcement, but Doherty would not have been among the dead.) Gen. Ham’s testimony has I believe already been linked above; basically, Africa Command got caught flat-footed. There was no “stand-down” because there was nobody to stand up in the first place–they had no assets on alert that could possibly have made a difference. They scrambled a special forces team from Germany, but that team only made it as far as Sicily before everybody had been evacuated from Benghazi. There were a few special forces in Tripoli, but they were helping to secure the embassy there (no Marine detachment at the Tripoli embassy). Sending Gibson and his team to Benghazi meant leaving the Tripoli embassy vulnerable–who thinks that would have been a good idea under the circumstances? In Benghazi, the Americans gathered at the annex, which had relatively better security and fortifications. Apparently, the plan was to hole up there until Africa Command and State figured out something better. (Note that the annex was not breached–Doherty and Woods were killed by mortar fire from some distance away while outside on the roof.) When it became obvious that the annex was not secure, AND the ambassador had been identified and his body retrieved, they hightailed it to the airport. While they were at the airport, Gibson’s team in Tripoli finished their activities there and became available for reassignment. By this point, though, all four deaths had occurred, the annex had been abandoned, and the entire Benghazi contingent was at the airport. Some were loading into the plane that had brought Doherty’s group hours earlier; Gibson’s crew was sent to the airport at Tripoli to meet them and provide security/medical care to them. The remaining group in Benghazi waited for a second plane (a Libyan Air Force jet arranged by State). Once everybody got to Tripoli, DoD sent two planes there to remove the evacuees and non-essential Tripoli personnel to Germany. I think your comments about Susan Rice have already been addressed by others. How would you or anybody else reacted if she had said, “Well, the CIA isn’t sure, but thinks it was probably the video. However, we in the White House think we are much smarter than the intelligence community, and they’re wrong–it was al-Qaeda.”? For that matter, the Senate’s report earlier this year noted, “It remains unclear if any group or person exercised overall command and control of the attacks or whether extremist group leaders directed their members to participate. Some intelligence suggests the attacks were likely put together in short order, following that day’s violent protests in Cairo against an inflammatory video.” That still seems to be the most common conclusion: 9/11/01 was planned for years, but 9/11/2012 was an opportunistic assault by individuals having only loose ties to any organized terror organization. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/406 "2014-05-10T17:41:59Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Let me ask you this: let’s say you were President during that time, and you couldn’t find OBL. Would you you publicly start that, “Jeeze, we can’t find him. We’re doing everything we can and he’s just outsmarted us”, making him even more of a hero to those who were fans of his. Or would you maybe do what Bush did and publicly minimize the importance of the figurehead while behind the scenes you were doing everything you can to find that motherfucker. I hope it would be the latter. I’m no fan of Bush, but doing that was the wise thing to do. > > But it is entertaining that no criticism can be made of Obama without the “Oh, yeah, we’ll how about Bush?!!!” :rolleyes: Why do you give Bush the benefit of the doubt that he was playing coy as part of a larger strategy but not assume that Obama is doing the same? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/407 "2014-05-10T17:51:44Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > But it is entertaining that no criticism can be made of Obama without the “Oh, yeah, we’ll how about Bush?!!!” :rolleyes: You aren’t criticizing Obama. You’re flatly and ignorantly asserting that whatever action he took is suspect and or wrong. You’re being a creationist. You’re starting with the conclusion, that Obama was horribly wrong, and working backwards to try and justify it. The reason Bush is brought up, is that by your absurd standards, Bush was so immeasurably worse, that you look like a hypocrite for remaining quiet about him, while screaming about Obama. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/408 "2014-05-10T18:07:32Z")
Hey **magellan**! Let me tell you a little something my friend … … uh, nevermind … four other posters (who actually understand my point) already shoved it back in your face, so we’re cool. ---
**Author:** ![Lenoxus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/fbc32d/32.png) [@Lenoxus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lenoxus)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/409 "2014-05-10T23:01:24Z")
It seems to me that part of the GOP’s game is: [ol] [li] Take an event which claimed four American lives.[/li][li] Ask Democrats nitpicky questions about the trivialities of some talking points.[/li][li] Get the respondents to dismiss the questions out of exasperation.[/li][li] Extract exasperated soundbites (“Dude, that was two years ago”, “What difference does it make?”).[/li][li] Couple that dismissiveness to the actual deaths as if they were the subject at hand. Instant outrage![/li][/ol] In some ways, it’s a brilliant means of smear, and I’m surprised neither party had ever tried it before, since every event in history has _some_ details one can nitpick. I can think of a couple reasons why. One is that the part where you nitpick requires that your base actually care about the nitpicks to some extent, so only certain rare situations allow for the trick. You couldn’t \*literally \*ask Bill Clinton / Ronald Reagan questions about what tie he wore when the USS Cole / Beirut barracks were attacked. Even if from my perspective that’s what the GOP _is_ doing with the current White House, it’s not that way from everyone’s perspective. Some people really do grant life-and-death importance to certain word choices. (I probably do it myself, for different areas of word choice.) That leads to my other reason. I think something about 9/11 and other events helped make it more acceptable for politicians to politicize these crises, even in ways that go beyond “How can we prevent this?” and more into the optics area. In fact, it’s possible that as a nation we’ve become numb to the idea of preventing tragedies at all. And when you lose the hope of “never again” (even in the lens of “If only my side were in charge this wouldn’t have happened!”) all that’s left is caring about which signals your leaders emit, whether those are pro- or anti-gun, or involve the word “terrorist”, or touch on religion or taxation or whatever. Possibly relating to that, one comment from a few days ago got my attention, and I don’t think anyone else responded on this particular point. > [@jtgain](#): > > I’m not making any argument other than the purposeful talking points from the administration shortly after the attacks that they were spontaneous and inspired by the YouTube video. A denial that such a thing occurred is similar to Big Brother’s assertion of increasing the chocolate ration. I had several discussions around the water cooler about the freedom of an individual to post a YouTube video and that those actions should never be an excuse for murder. This line of thought, for me, is another frustrating/odd element of the brouhaha. Many conservatives seem to think that if a liberal says “Those Muslims killed those people out of anger at a video”, the implication from the liberal is there is no first-amendment right to make such videos. As opposed to the possibility which should so without saying, that the Muslims in question are _obviously_ murderers without excuse. I guess that unlike a conservative, a liberal can’t think that any Muslim might be over-reacting, because they luvv them some Muslim terrorists, right? (See also “Where are all the moderate Muslims who condemn violence?”, a question which assumes quite a lot of bad faith, in both sense of “faith”.) After 9/11, many people said “They hate our freedom”. Were they implying that freedom is a bad thing or an “excuse for murder”? In the broader context, I can kind of understand the point being made here, because a lot of different people in government had indeed expressed issues with that particular video (which _was_ a really awful piece of work) and with religious hatred in general. Such attempts to diffuse tensions make complete sense, especially when there are lots of people in the world who look at the US and its president in the worst possible light, and would jump all over any lack of condemning the hateful film as a tacit approval. (Of course, as their Benghazi actions show, Republicans wouldn’t know anything about thinking in such terms.) But regardless, “Blaming the video for the attack means sympathizing with the attackers and hating free expression” is a weird argument to make because no one disagrees about the simple fact that people have, throughout history, committed violence in retaliation for free expression they disliked. If in fact the entire Benghazi incident _had_ been 100% anti-film protest and 0% anything else, would the president be obligated to _lie_ that the video had nothing to do with it? Or would it be okay to say they were killing over a video, but not to say anything negative about the video itself? (Even if directly asked their opinion.) What if the president _endorsed_ the video, saying “That’s right, screw you, Islam!”? Would that satisfy today’s GOP, or would it be too conciliatory to terrorists? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/410 "2014-05-11T01:27:34Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Shouldn’t this thread be in the Elections forum? That’s what it’s really about, after all. I doubt these hearings are going to sway any voters in November no matter how they go. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/411 "2014-05-11T05:19:18Z")
Next time you’re on the street and you hear someone talking about Benghazi, ask them were it is. When they pause, say, “Isn’t in in Kenya?” Ans: “Yeah, Kenya. That sounds right.” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/412 "2014-05-11T15:35:42Z")
For your viewing pleasure: [here you go.](http://mash.network.coull.com/activatevideo?video_provider_id=2&pid=8165&website_id=23863&width=549&height=339&embed_type=IFRAME&video_provider_url=http://www.youtube.com/embed/A1jeJmeeMjs?version%3D3%26rel%3D1%26fs%3D1%26showsearch%3D0%26showinfo%3D1%26iv_load_policy%3D1%26wmode%3Dtransparent&mobile=true&referrer=http://allenwestrepublic.com/2013/11/10/allen-west-here-is-truly-one-of-the-exceptional-good-guys-on-capitol-h) ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/413 "2014-05-11T15:40:30Z")
Thanks. I haven’t seen a spewing partisan hack since I switched of Fox ‘News’ last night. ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/414 "2014-05-11T15:45:36Z")
The composition of the select committee on the Republican side tells you everything you need to know about what this is really about. Where are the elder statesmen or credible foreign policy types? Either such people weren’t asked to participate or they turned down the opportunity outright. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/415 "2014-05-11T16:00:57Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > For your viewing pleasure: [here you go.](http://mash.network.coull.com/activatevideo?video_provider_id=2&pid=8165&website_id=23863&width=549&height=339&embed_type=IFRAME&video_provider_url=http://www.youtube.com/embed/A1jeJmeeMjs?version%3D3%26rel%3D1%26fs%3D1%26showsearch%3D0%26showinfo%3D1%26iv_load_policy%3D1%26wmode%3Dtransparent&mobile=true&referrer=http://allenwestrepublic.com/2013/11/10/allen-west-here-is-truly-one-of-the-exceptional-good-guys-on-capitol-h) We’ve got nine pages of people dissecting those lies and distortions already. Why did you think that putting them on a video would make anyone feel differently about them? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/416 "2014-05-11T16:11:18Z")
Does that video include the quote of Gowdy saying it will be a nonpartisan investigation? Look, everyone knows if you want to take most politics out of an investigation, either appoint statesmen like members on an even ratio, or start an independent commission without elected members serving on it. It is so transparently ridiculous to make a panel with a built-in Republican advantage, where half the Republicans have a history of extreme partisanship, and then claim the committee has nothing to do with politics. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/417 "2014-05-11T16:39:56Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > For your viewing pleasure: [here you go.](http://mash.network.coull.com/activatevideo?video_provider_id=2&pid=8165&website_id=23863&width=549&height=339&embed_type=IFRAME&video_provider_url=http://www.youtube.com/embed/A1jeJmeeMjs?version%3D3%26rel%3D1%26fs%3D1%26showsearch%3D0%26showinfo%3D1%26iv_load_policy%3D1%26wmode%3Dtransparent&mobile=true&referrer=http://allenwestrepublic.com/2013/11/10/allen-west-here-is-truly-one-of-the-exceptional-good-guys-on-capitol-h) He was lying about the requests for more troops, the deployment of troops, was utterly insane about asking why Rice was on talkshows, and was delusional about wondering how “the video” was suspected. In short, he was selling lies and vapid stupidity. Only someone gullible, uninformed or irrational would think that was persuasive. So you get repeatedly smacked down for a silly comment, and your response is to post this drivel? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/418 "2014-05-11T16:43:22Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Does that video include the quote of Gowdy saying it will be a nonpartisan investigation? Look, everyone knows if you want to take most politics out of an investigation, either appoint statesmen like members on an even ratio, or start an independent commission without elected members serving on it. > > It is so transparently ridiculous to make a panel with a built-in Republican advantage, where half the Republicans have a history of extreme partisanship, and then claim the committee has nothing to do with politics. Because of how ignorant and angry the average Republican is. Look at this thread, intelligent people who should know better are still parroting misinformation years after the events. The GOP is putting on this pretend investigation because two years from now, it will be common knowledge that “the investigation” produced proof Obama garroted Stevens personally, or whatever nonsense they come up with. Because the GOP is so universally ignorant and delusional, you don’t need real evidence, you just need a prop that you can point to. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/419 "2014-05-11T23:14:47Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Does that video include the quote of Gowdy saying it will be a nonpartisan investigation? Surely you don’t mean [this quote](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/11/trey-gowdy-benghazi_n_5305134.html): > [@](#): > > Gowdy got himself in trouble last week when he declared out of the gate that “if an administration is slow-walking document production, I can’t end a trial simply because the defense won’t cooperate.” > > In response, multiple commentators pointed out that the select committee’s purpose is supposed to be investigative, not prosecutorial. And the remark played into the Democratic criticism that House Republicans have assumed guilt on the part of the White House. He’s trying to backtrack, in his later appearances on his party’s TV channel. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/420 "2014-05-12T00:07:13Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > For your viewing pleasure: [here you go.](http://mash.network.coull.com/activatevideo?video_provider_id=2&pid=8165&website_id=23863&width=549&height=339&embed_type=IFRAME&video_provider_url=http://www.youtube.com/embed/A1jeJmeeMjs?version%3D3%26rel%3D1%26fs%3D1%26showsearch%3D0%26showinfo%3D1%26iv_load_policy%3D1%26wmode%3Dtransparent&mobile=true&referrer=http://allenwestrepublic.com/2013/11/10/allen-west-here-is-truly-one-of-the-exceptional-good-guys-on-capitol-h) I was particularly amused by the smirking little dweeb behind the speaker, who was attempting to be solemn. Kind of sez it all. Anyone know who that twit was? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535.md?page=22)