# With trepidation, Benghazi **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2014, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535 "2014-05-02T20:30:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/441 "2014-05-12T15:58:16Z")
No one in the Admin has been indicted in connection with Benghazi, and AFAIK no one is accused or suspected of anything indictable; yet [Trey Goudy seems to think he’s running a **trial.**](http://www.salon.com/2014/05/12/trey_gowdy%e2%80%99s_trial_obsession_benghazi_committee_chair_confused_about_his_role/) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/442 "2014-05-12T16:01:14Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Unlike some people, I can’t read redacted files because they’re, well…, redacted. Now, hopefully, we’ll be able to see what the Whitehouse and State Dept were hiding from public view. You know they’re **supposed** to hide a lot of things from public view. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/443 "2014-05-12T16:03:36Z")
**doorhinge** : do you believe there was a stand-down order? ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/444 "2014-05-12T16:07:27Z")
Are we sure that Issa didn’t have insurance out on the building and burned it down to get the insurance money? I mean, based on his past history, it seems like something he might do. And why won’t the media ask the question? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/445 "2014-05-12T16:18:31Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Has the Whitehouse taken credit for the arrest or killing of any of the Benghazi planners or attackers? Not that I’m aware of but your sources might have a different answer. I have some questions for _you_, Brainiac. It’s not even been 2 years since the Benghazi attack. How long did it take to get Bin Laden? Eleven years? Did you complain about it when Bush blew the opportunity to corner Bin Laden in Tora Bora? And who was POTUS when Bin Laden was finally killed? I expect no straight answers from someone such as yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/446 "2014-05-12T17:26:38Z")
In a feeble attempt to pull this thread back from the state of total chaos that it seems to have devolved into, I think it’s worth distinguishing the two varieties of #Benghazi: **1. The administration’s _conduct_ in the run-up to, during, and after the attack was scandalous.** Study questions: Why were we still there after attempts on the British ambassador’s life etc.? Why were pleas for more security ignored? Why wasn’t an adequate military response staged once the attack was underway? Why wasn’t Obama glued to his seat in the situation room? Why hasn’t the administration brought the perpetrators to justice? **2. The administration’s _portrayal_ of the events to the American public was scandalously misleading.** Study questions: Why did Susan Rice tie the Benghazi attack to the Cairo protests? Why didn’t Obama call it “terrorism,” rather than (merely) strongly implying it in the words “act of terror?” #Benghazi Type 2 has been argued ad nauseam on this thread. Further, while the surfacing of this email from Ben Rhodes does seem to suggest a lack of enthusiasm on the part of the administration in forking over binders full of documents to Congress, _ipso facto_ evidence of a cover up it is not. The one simply doesn’t follow from the other. **Doorhinge** seems to be placing the most emphasis on #Benghazi Type 1. What he and other Republicans seem unwilling to accept is that the Type 1 questions have been answered to a degree that is totally disproportionate with the significance of the event. Wrap yourself in the flag and bemoan four dead Americans all you want, this wasn’t Pearl Harbor, ok? I challenge you to explain why Benghazi deserves endless Congressional hearings (on the Type 1 questions) while prior attacks on our diplomatic facilities did not. What more do we need to know? - Buck McKeon and his committee concluded nothing militarily could be done, and we’ve made changes to protocol accordingly. - Hillary Clinton has essentially [admitted](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/11/trey-gowdy-hillary-clinton_n_5305629.html), yeah, we fucked up and that sort of thing happens. So we should learn from our mistakes and avoid it happening in the future. How does going after the former Secretary of State advance that project? - “No one lost their job.” What is the relevant legal statute or precedent that says when a surprise attack occurs, x number of people need to lose their job? - It doesn’t fucking matter that Obama wasn’t in the Situation Room unless your approach to current events occurs on a 5th grade level. - Pleas for more security were ignored for the same reason they’re ignored all the time: finite resources and lack of the benefit of hindsight. There is no defensible reason to rehash #Benghazi Type 1 questions except for transparently partisan purposes. Most of the country realizes this. If you don’t, prepare to shout at your TV screen a lot in coming months. Now, some have argued that #Benghazi Type 1 questions deserve more scrutiny than prior attacks “because no one lied about prior attacks.” That is another non sequitur. If indeed Obama lied about the attacks, that is a scandal in its own right. It has nothing to do with that whole host of other questions on our security position, military response, and hunt for perpetrators. By the way, as a general point, throughout the Benghazi controversy Republicans have shifted the emphasis between and within each of these two buckets. First it’s about what Susan Rice said, then it’s about lack of military response (Stand-down-gate). First it’s about Obama, then it’s about Hillary. The lack of a consistent rank-ordering of what exactly their beef(s) is/are is testament to how weak their position has been all along. When you’re arguing with someone and their Main Point is continually changing, that’s generally a clue that they’re on weak footing. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/447 "2014-05-12T18:09:46Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Has the Whitehouse taken credit for the arrest or killing of any of the Benghazi planners or attackers? Not that I’m aware of but your sources might have a different answer. Your assertion was that none of them had been killed or arrested. How do you know that? If you do not know that to be a fact, please admit that and acknowledge that your previous post was completely erroneous. If you do know it to be a fact, please provide a link so the rest of us can take a look. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/448 "2014-05-12T18:35:28Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > By the way, as a general point, throughout the Benghazi controversy Republicans have shifted the emphasis between and within each of these two buckets. First it’s about what Susan Rice said, then it’s about lack of military response (Stand-down-gate). First it’s about Obama, then it’s about Hillary. The lack of a consistent rank-ordering of what exactly their beef(s) is/are is testament to how weak their position has been all along. When you’re arguing with someone and their Main Point is continually changing, that’s generally a clue that they’re on weak footing. Or that they make shit up. For example, they’re more interested in e-mails now, but for several months after the attack, the Fox drumbeat was about how we were attacked because they only respect strength, and Obama has consistently shown weakness in Libya. When actually, terrorist spokesmen have said that one of the prime motivations for the attack was Obama’s killing (by drone strike) the Libyan al Qaeda leader Abu Yahya al Libi a few months earlier. I guess that wasn’t strong enough. I guess McCain would have snuck into al Libi’s camp with a knife between his teeth, and done it himself. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/449 "2014-05-12T21:48:56Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > For your viewing pleasure: [here you go.](http://mash.network.coull.com/activatevideo?video_provider_id=2&pid=8165&website_id=23863&width=549&height=339&embed_type=IFRAME&video_provider_url=http://www.youtube.com/embed/A1jeJmeeMjs?version%3D3%26rel%3D1%26fs%3D1%26showsearch%3D0%26showinfo%3D1%26iv_load_policy%3D1%26wmode%3Dtransparent&mobile=true&referrer=http://allenwestrepublic.com/2013/11/10/allen-west-here-is-truly-one-of-the-exceptional-good-guys-on-capitol-h) So Gowdy joins others here (Debaser, Magiver) and now you, in simply refusing to acknowledge the ample evidence at the time that the video played an important role in the attacks. I give up. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/450 "2014-05-12T23:19:07Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > It’s White House, for God’s sake, not Whitehouse. Take this conversation to as sophomoric a level as you want, but can we at least use proper English around here? White House it is. (As an aside, which religion are you or which God are you referring to?) ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/451 "2014-05-12T23:26:11Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Your assertion was that none of them had been killed or arrested. How do you know that? > > If you do not know that to be a fact, please admit that and acknowledge that your previous post was completely erroneous. > > If you do know it to be a fact, please provide a link so the rest of us can take a look. > > Thanks. That’s what committee investigations are for. Maybe we’ll get the definitive answer soon, even if the Democrats refuse to participate in the process. The other possibility is that the White House, State Dept, U.S. Military, or another government has the Benghazi planners/attackers under lock and key (or six feet of dirt) without notifying anyone. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/452 "2014-05-12T23:29:37Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The other possibility is that the White House, State Dept, U.S. Military, or another government has the Benghazi planners/attackers under lock and key (or six feet of dirt) without notifying anyone. Not even you believe that is a possibility. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/453 "2014-05-12T23:39:37Z")
[This explains a lot.](http://www.salon.com/2014/05/12/fox_news_psycho_social_benghazi_world_the_rights_fear_of_facts_and_the_reality_based_community/) > [@](#): > > All this reminded me of Karen Armstrong’s discussion of _mythos_ and _logos_ in the introductory chapter of “The Battle for God” — two distinctly different ways of making sense of the world. _“Logos,”_ Armstrong explained, “was the rational, pragmatic, and scientific thought that enabled men and women to function well in the world.” In contrast: > > > [@](#): > > > > Myth was not concerned with practical matters, but with meaning. Unless we find some significance in our lives, we mortal men and women fall very easily into despair. The mythos of a society provided people with a context that made sense of their day-to-day lives; it directed their attention to the eternal and the universal. It was also rooted in what we would call the unconscious mind. > > We all have need of both _logos_ and _mythos_ in our everyday lives. And yet, it’s obvious that liberals focus collectively and politically around _logos — they don’t call it “the reality-based community” for nothing_ — while conservatives do the same around _mythos,_ instead, albeit a rather paranoid version of it. > > This difference helps enormously when it comes to trying to get a deeper understanding of the politics of Benghazi vs. “#Benghazi,” as Hayes savvily refers to it. In the real world, the attack on Benghazi in which four Americans were killed was a regrettable tragedy — but just one such example among all too many. Just one week after the Benghazi attacks, a Pakistani newspaper published a list of 44 attacks on U.S. embassies since 1958 (13 of them under George W. Bush), and MSNBC’s Timothy Noah topped that recently, writing: > > > [@](#): > > > > Deadly violence against U.S. diplomats, sadly, is a frequent occurrence. The State Department counts 86 “significant attacks” against diplomatic outposts just in 2012, the year of the Benghazi attack. The death toll from these 2012 attacks was not four, but 24. And this is not a new problem. Since 1970, there have been 521 attacks on U.S. diplomatic targets, killing 500 people. The deadliest of these was not Benghazi but a truck bomb explosion in Nairobi, Kenya that killed 213 people, 12 of them Americans. Since 1977, 66 American diplomats have been killed by terrorists. > > Needless to say, no other attack on U.S. diplomats has gotten anywhere near the prolonged attention focused on #Benghazi. Certainly not the 1983 Beirut Embassy bombing, in which 63 people were killed, including 17 Americans, on Ronald Reagan’s watch — not to be confused with the 1983 Beirut barracks bombing, six months later, in which 241 American servicemen were killed, along with 58 French servicemen, six civilians and two suicide bombers. Ronald Reagan is a beloved, god-like figure on the right, who can Do No Wrong. Barack Obama is the exact opposite. By the dictates of \*mythos, \*investigations are arranged accordingly — the number of casualties is not even an afterthought. Facts simply do not matter in the framework of _mythos_ and #Benghazi. > > Meanwhile, in the real world, facts _do_ matter. Facts about the attacks on Benghazi, about the context surrounding them, about how the Obama administration responded to them, even about how they talked about them. And because facts matter, it matters that the facts uncovered by past investigations have failed to validate hysterical right-wing claims. (See Media Matters on the Senate Select Intelligence Committee report, and the declassified transcripts from House Armed Services Committee hearings, for example.) It matters that even Buck McKeon, chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, said in early April that he was satisfied with the military response to the attack: > > > [@](#): > > > > “I think I’ve pretty well been satisfied that given where the troops were, how quickly the thing all happened and how quickly it dissipated, we probably couldn’t have done more than we did” > > \ > > This is how the elements all fit together to produce birtherism, and sustain it at remarkably high levels. But a similar dynamic was behind the GOP’s opposition to Obamacare as well. After all, Obama’s proposal was originally based on the Heritage Foundation’s alternative to the Clinton proposal in 1993/94, which in turn inspired RomneyCare. There simply was no _logos_-based foundation for vehemently denouncing Obamacare as some kind of exotic alien takeover plot — and yet, that’s just what their _mythos_ demanded be done. And so it was. > > #Benghazi is more of the same. There are legitimate issues surrounding Benghazi, but Republicans have shown zero interest in them. They do not do _logos,_ period. More money for embassy security? You’ve got to be kidding! Even more so, if you expect them to change. What they are after is political theater, period, end of sentence, end of story. Or, if you will, political ritual: > > > [@](#): > > > > Myth only became a reality when it was embodied in cult, rituals, and ceremonies which worked aesthetically upon worshipers, evoking within them a sense of sacred significance and enabling them to apprehend the deeper currents of existence. > > In short, #Benghazi is a ritual of purification and unification, drawing together all “true Americans” as the likes of Sarah Palin and Cliven Bundy like to call them. Its complete disconnect from the world of _logos_ is a feature, not a bug. In the world of _logos,_ Obamacare has lost its luster as something to run against—and even Fox News knows that. In fact, any _logos_-based politics risks generating some kind of friction or other. Whenever you have to deal with facts, they can get in the way of uniting different factions, whether it’s foreign policy in Ukraine, immigration reform, gay marriage or the new faux concern with inequality. With all the _logos_-based pitfalls out there, the question isn’t why the GOP is rushing to embrace #Benghazi. The real question is: What took them so long? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/454 "2014-05-12T23:39:39Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > In a feeble attempt to pull this thread back from the state of total chaos that it seems to have devolved into, I think it’s worth distinguishing the two varieties of #Benghazi: > > **1. The administration’s _conduct_ in the run-up to, during, and after the attack was scandalous.** > > **2. The administration’s _portrayal_ of the events to the American public was scandalously misleading.** > > … **Doorhinge** seems to be placing the most emphasis on #Benghazi Type 1. What he and other Republicans seem unwilling to accept is that the Type 1 questions have been answered to a degree that is totally disproportionate with the significance of the event. (post shortened) Both varieties create questions that, hopefully, will be fully addressed during the upcoming investigation. Questions will be asked, subpoenas will be issued, and, hopefully, truthful answers will be forth coming. It would have been a lot less trouble if the White House and State Dept had simply provided the answers when originally asked. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/455 "2014-05-12T23:44:27Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Not even you believe that is a possibility. No, I don’t believe that’s even a remotely possible answer but **Snowboader Bo** seems to be desperately seeking some kind of answer. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/456 "2014-05-13T00:26:58Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > It would have been a lot less trouble if the White House and State Dept had simply provided the answers when originally asked. Nothing they did would have satisfied the Pubs. These theater-hearings were inevitable. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/457 "2014-05-13T12:30:54Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > No, I don’t believe that’s even a remotely possible answer but **Snowboader Bo** seems to be desperately seeking some kind of answer. No, **Snowboarder Bo** has simply called you out for making a statement of fact for which you have no evidence or cite. He’s not desperately seeking anything, except maybe to live in a world where facts actually matter. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/458 "2014-05-13T13:25:46Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Both varieties create questions that, hopefully, will be fully addressed during the upcoming investigation. Questions will be asked, subpoenas will be issued, and, hopefully, truthful answers will be forth coming. Or Boehner could simply hire Christie’s lawyers to do (well, re-repeat) the investigation. It would take far less time and money, and their findings that nothing nefarious occurred would be unquestioningly accepted. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_jeffrey_lebowski/32/215_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Jeffrey_Lebowski)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/459 "2014-05-20T04:45:39Z")
[Please put Alan Grayson on this panel!!](http://www.salon.com/2014/05/19/put_alan_grayson_on_benghazi_panel_why_hes_dems_best_option_to_expose_this_clown_show/) ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/460 "2014-05-20T15:31:18Z")
I believe Alan Grayson is the perfect choice/example of the Democrat party. The committee’s daily ramblings will make headlines every couple of hours. Benghazi, Benghazi, Benghazi… and the voters can see the Democrat party’s great champion Grayson at his best. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535.md?page=24)