# With trepidation, Benghazi **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2014, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535 "2014-05-02T20:30:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 46
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/901 "2014-06-22T18:21:34Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > they had a drone flying in real time to map out hostile forces. That’s more prep work than any assault in WW-II ever had to work with. But by all means start a thread on what you know given your posts on how hard it was to launch an airplane. OMG, you’re still defending it. This is amazing. Just let it be known, that Magiver’s plan, for Benghazi, was to drop commandos on motorcycles into the city, and then… presumably shoot badguys while doing wheelies. Aside from the fact that they possibly didn’t have bikes on pallets ready to go, the utter, vapid stupidity of that plan is staggering. No intel, no knowledge of where in the city is safe, pallets of bikes landing on rooftops or in walled compounds, no attack plan, it’s nighttime and most of the motorcycle ninjas can’t read the street signs, randomly driving around the city, listening to some drone pilot trying to give real time directions to a dozen motorcycles… If we were stupid enough as a country to enact your plan, we’d have a bunch of deal spec-ops guys and nothing to show for it. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > all you have to do is prove it. No, all he has to do is prove it. He has a history of lying and inventing stories. And he is making the claim. I don’t have to prove something he says is not true, _he has to prove that it is true_. That’s how this works. _When you make a claim, you bring evidence._ Actual journalists have reputations to put on the line, but Klein has squandered his. > [@](#): > > Obama ran a campaign touting transparency. The Benghazi investigation was the exact opposite of transparency. It is a red flag that he’s hiding something. No, it has been investigated several times, and the questions have been answered. And only those with an axe to grind are still suspicious. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/902 "2014-06-22T18:27:07Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Prove he’s wrong. It’s already been shown the protest story was a deliberate lie. He’s a pathological liar with no credibility, even among conservative journalists. I will not spend even ten seconds trying to disprove any claim of his. Why you believe anything he says is the actual issue here. If Jayson Blair claimed two sources that Bush approved a false-flag operation that brought down the Twin Towers, how much effort would you put into debunking that claim? Your double standards are perfectly clear: you don’t believe anything the times prints because of Blair, but you’ll regurgitate anything from any whacko source as long as it plays to your own political agenda. Do you not worry that people will begin (heh) to take your own assertions with the same lack of credibility as virtually everyone else (conservatives included) takes Edward Klein’s? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/903 "2014-06-22T18:29:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Wow. If you REALLY want to know how I feel (although it won’t, historically, stop you and your partners in insanity from believing all of the counterfactual bullshit you want to believe), I think the majority of modern right-wingers/tea partiers/Republicans ought to be rounded up and committed to an asylum, because they’re mostly completely insane and a danger to themselves and others. Maybe we can convert South Carolina…the traditional saying is that it’s too big for an insane asylum, but if we manage to catch enough of you crazy people… ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/904 "2014-06-22T18:34:52Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Prove he’s wrong. It’s already been shown the protest story was a deliberate lie. No, it hasn’t. Honestly, it hasn’t. There was confusion early in the process and they weren’t sure. You have an inept and ignorant view of intelligence gathering where you think it’s easier than it is. You think a drone can look at night from miles away and just tell to everyone’s satisfaction that there wasn’t a protest at a battle site 90 minutes earlier. That’s ignorant. People went over that feed frame by frame. It was processed and enhanced over days and weeks. You assume that just looking at the screen, some analyst said, in real time, “Wait, there was no protest here, look no signs on the ground!” As for Klein, you’re supporting a liar, who just so happens to be telling you what you want to hear. Don’t you see how bad that is? If you can’t make your case without drivel from guys like Klein, maybe your case can’t be made? You’re assuming you’re right and flailing around for whatever you can find to justify your position. The fact is, you’re wrong, which is why you have nothing but unrelated attacks, and conspiracy theories from known liars to support your position. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/905 "2014-06-22T18:40:49Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > OMG, you’re still defending it. This is amazing. > > Just let it be known, that Magiver’s plan, for Benghazi, was to drop commandos on motorcycles into the city, and then… presumably shoot badguys while doing wheelies. Aside from the fact that they possibly didn’t have bikes on pallets ready to go, the utter, vapid stupidity of that plan is staggering. No intel, no knowledge of where in the city is safe, pallets of bikes landing on rooftops or in walled compounds, no attack plan, it’s nighttime and most of the motorcycle ninjas can’t read the street signs, randomly driving around the city, listening to some drone pilot trying to give real time directions to a dozen motorcycles… OH hell no. You’re the one who said it took hrs to launch an airplane when in reality it’s minutes. You said we didn’t have any way of inserting equipment. I cited the type of equipment available for rapid deployment. You said we couldn’t parachute stuff in because we don’t know where it would land. I cited GPS driven chute systems. I cited the standard issue stuff that is in the public domain of knowledge. Nothing hi-tech. Do you think people who plan rapid deployments using motorcycles and rubber boats and GPS chute system are stupid? > [@Lobohan](#): > > If we were stupid enough as a country to enact your plan, we’d have a bunch of deal spec-ops guys and nothing to show for it. :rolleyes: you know what we call people who show up weeks later after an attack to risk their lives? The Army. The people who go in when time is an issue are those in the various special force groups. This is what they train for. > [@Lobohan](#): > > No, all he has to do is prove it. He has a history of lying and inventing stories. And he is making the claim. I don’t have to prove something he says is not true, _he has to prove that it is true_. > > That’s how this works. _When you make a claim, you bring evidence._ Actual journalists have reputations to put on the line, but Klein has squandered his. yes, that’s how it works, when you claim there’s a protest, PROVE IT. This thread is about Benghazi and the lie that was perpetrated over it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/906 "2014-06-22T18:43:09Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > As for Klein, you’re supporting a liar, who just so happens to be telling you what you want to hear. Prove him wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/907 "2014-06-22T18:45:59Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Prove him wrong. He has a history of being dishonest. Prove him right. That you can’t understand this very simple concept shows why you believe the rubbish you do. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/908 "2014-06-22T19:00:36Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Prove him wrong. So it is your position that you trust pathological liars until they are proven incorrect? This is what you are posting on the Internet, and the type of argument you want people to associate with you? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/909 "2014-06-22T19:05:54Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > OH hell no. You’re the one who said it took hrs to launch an airplane when in reality it’s minutes… How many minutes do you think it took to put together the Abu Khatallah mission? ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/910 "2014-06-22T22:04:41Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > “Hillary was stunned when she heard the president talk about the Benghazi attack,” one of her top legal advisers said in an interview. “Obama wanted her to say that the attack had been a spontaneous demonstration triggered by an obscure video on the Internet that demeaned the Prophet Mohammed.” There was ample evidence right after the attacks that the video played a significant role in them. Why won’t you address this _fact_, that has been cited by myself and others in this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/911 "2014-06-22T23:34:51Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > OH hell no. You’re the one who said it took hrs to launch an airplane when in reality it’s minutes. You said we didn’t have any way of inserting equipment. I cited the type of equipment available for rapid deployment. You said we couldn’t parachute stuff in because we don’t know where it would land. I cited GPS driven chute systems. I cited the standard issue stuff that is in the public domain of knowledge. Nothing hi-tech. Do you think people who plan rapid deployments using motorcycles and rubber boats and GPS chute system are stupid? > > you know what we call people who show up weeks later after an attack to risk their lives? The Army. The people who go in when time is an issue are those in the various special force groups. This is what they train for. > > yes, that’s how it works, when you claim there’s a protest, PROVE IT. This thread is about Benghazi and the lie that was perpetrated over it. > [@Magiver](#): > > OH hell no. You’re the one who said it took hrs to launch an airplane when in reality it’s minutes. Again, simplistic and goofy. It takes hours to outfit a special operations raid. Not counting the days or weeks of intelligence gathering and training. You think this is easy and not necessary because you don’t appreciate the complexity. > [@](#): > > You said we didn’t have any way of inserting equipment. I cited the type of equipment available for rapid deployment. You said we couldn’t parachute stuff in because we don’t know where it would land. I cited GPS driven chute systems. I cited the standard issue stuff that is in the public domain of knowledge. Nothing hi-tech. Do you think people who plan rapid deployments using motorcycles and rubber boats and GPS chute system are stupid? I’m not arguing that it was impossible, I’m arguing that it’s utterly stupid. Dropping motorcycles into a hostile city is fucking silly. Blundering around that city, while getting shot at, so that you can pack survivors out on your motorcycles is stupid. Your whole position would make the worst GI Joe episode of all time. > [@](#): > > you know what we call people who show up weeks later after an attack to risk their lives? The Army. The people who go in when time is an issue are those in the various special force groups. This is what they train for. They don’t train to have their lives thrown away because you don’t know what you’re talking about. > [@](#): > > yes, that’s how it works, when you claim there’s a protest, PROVE IT. This thread is about Benghazi and the lie that was perpetrated over it. They thought there was a protest at first. Because the world is more complicated than you give it credit for. Your assertion that the one drone, miles away, gave all the info they’d need to rule out a protest, in real time, is again, the result of not understanding how complex the world is. And lets be clear, this thread is about the RW delusions and misunderstandings about Benghazi, of which you are the perfect example. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/912 "2014-06-22T23:37:27Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > There was ample evidence right after the attacks that the video played a significant role in them. Why won’t you address this _fact_, that has been cited by myself and others in this thread? Because ideology can be a force field that keeps unwanted facts out. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/913 "2014-06-23T06:13:57Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > There was ample evidence right after the attacks that the video played a significant role in them. Why won’t you address this _fact_, that has been cited by myself and others in this thread? no, there isn’t any evidence it was anything other than a direct attack. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/914 "2014-06-23T06:29:09Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Again, simplistic and goofy. It takes hours to outfit a special operations raid. Not counting the days or weeks of intelligence gathering and training. You think this is easy and not necessary because you don’t appreciate the complexity. That’s pure nonsense. If the WH comes under attack the response is not going to be hours while people formulate a strategy. for that matter if a school comes under attack they will get an immediate response. From regular police who have no special operations training. Compared to virtually any combat situation in the history of the United States military this was a goldmine of advantage favoring US troops. We’ve mapped every square inch of the planet already which creates exact coordinates for gps weapons. We’ve photographed every square inch of the of the planet which provides the exact layout of any city down to the resolution of a something the size of a car. We had a drone in place to oversee the battlefield in real time. It was never a question of if special troops could be inserted effectively. It was a matter of doing it in a timely manner. Without the foreknowledge of when this would end the proper response was to send in what we had available in the area. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/915 "2014-06-23T06:49:35Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > That’s pure nonsense. If the WH comes under attack the response is not going to be hours while people formulate a strategy. for that matter if a school comes under attack they will get an immediate response. From regular police who have no special operations training. No, they aren’t the same. Please address this: [ul] [li]The White House is in America. [/li][li]The White House is in an American controlled city.[/li][li]The White House is located in a city where the defenders would have strong operational knowledge of the city and how to navigate it.[/li][li]The White House has people on standby to defend it at all times.[/li][li]The White House is not in a city where enemies control large sections of it.[/li][li]The insertion of the defenders into the proximity of the White House is unlikely to involve SAMs.[/li][li]The White House is not located in sovereign country that we would violate the airspace of when attempting to insert defenders.[/li][li]The White House is subject to a greater level of operational intelligence than Benghazi.[/li][/ul] The fact that you even made that argument should make you feel ashamed. It’s drivel, utter nonsense and outright laughable. > [@](#): > > Compared to virtually any combat situation in the history of the United States military this was a goldmine of advantage favoring US troops. No, that is a profoundly stupid statement. We don’t move troops into other countries with no preparation or intelligence. And your assertion is, again, utterly nonsensical. > [@](#): > > We’ve mapped every square inch of the planet already which creates exact coordinates for gps weapons. We’ve photographed every square inch of the of the planet which provides the exact layout of any city down to the resolution of a something the size of a car. We had a drone in place to oversee the battlefield in real time. You again have a cartoonish view of our capabilities. GPS doesn’t let you magically see which building guys are shooting out of. A drone doesn’t magically let you have operational awareness of who is where, who is friendly, who is hostile and is subject to the chaos and fog of war. Your playing Contra as a child doesn’t make you a general. [Real experts have said you’re full of shit](http://thehill.com/video/sunday-shows/299213-gates-defends-benghazi-response-says-critics-have-cartoonish-view-of-military). Real experts. > [@SoD Gates](#): > > **“To send some small number of special forces or other troops in without knowing what the environment is, without knowing what the threat is, without having any intelligence in terms of what is actually going on on the ground, I think, would have been very dangerous,”** said Gates in an interview aired on CBS’s “Face the Nation.” > **“Personally, I would not have approved that because we just don’t it’s sort of a cartoonish impression of military capabilities and military forces,”** he continued. “The one thing that our forces are noted for is planning and preparation before we send people in harm’s way. And there just wasn’t time to do that.” Gates thinks you’re full of shit and have a cartoonish view of how the military works. End of Line. > [@](#): > > It was never a question of if special troops could be inserted effectively. It was a matter of doing it in a timely manner. Without the foreknowledge of when this would end the proper response was to send in what we had available in the area. No, it would be stupid. You are advocating a stance that would get people killed for no reason. Which you’ve been shown before. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/916 "2014-06-23T11:33:20Z")
My god **Magiver** ’s ‘knowledge’ of our military capabilities is terrible. It’s as if we put a 10 year old in charge whose knowledge of the military came entirely from watching old GI Joe cartoons. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/917 "2014-06-23T11:36:00Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Without the foreknowledge of when this would end the proper response was to send in what we had available in the area. This is not how military command and control works. When something bad happens, the leadership doesn’t just pull the trigger and ‘send in what we have available’. We don’t want to make a bad situation worse – ten Rangers and a helicopter may be available, but if we don’t do our homework and take the time to really understand what’s happening, we could just be adding ten casualties and a downed helicopter. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/918 "2014-06-23T13:35:59Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It was never a question of if special troops could be inserted effectively. It was a matter of doing it in a timely manner. Without the foreknowledge of when this would end the proper response was to send in what we had available in the area. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is not how military command and control works. When something bad happens, the leadership doesn’t just pull the trigger and ‘send in what we have available’. We don’t want to make a bad situation worse – ten Rangers and a helicopter may be available, but if we don’t do our homework and take the time to really understand what’s happening, we could just be adding ten casualties and a downed helicopter. He’s been told this before, so I doubt one more go-round will make any difference, but what **Magiver** is talking about _is exactly what was done._ No less than **three** special forces teams [were ordered to prepare to deploy to Libya](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/benghazi-timeline-how-the-attack-unfolded/): one from Fort Bragg, one from Spain (which arrived in Tripoli after the evacuation from Benghazi), and one from Croatia (which arrived at a base in Italy an hour before the team from Spain reached Tripoli). As it happens, because of physics, they arrived after the consulate staff had been evacuated. Furthermore, a team from Tripoli flew to Benghazi and assisted in the evacuation. **Magiver** is somehow able to criticize the government for doing exactly what he’s saying they should have done. ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/919 "2014-06-23T13:42:46Z")
Doesn’t count. They didn’t parachute in on motorcycles. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/920 "2014-06-23T14:32:54Z")
I don’t see reports of unarmed F-16s doing low-alt, fuel-less flybys to scare the crowd into submission either. Which obviously means the administration might as well have shot Ambassador Stevens and Vile Rat themselves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535.md?page=45) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535.md?page=47)