# With trepidation, Benghazi **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2014, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535 "2014-05-02T20:30:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/101 "2014-05-03T23:24:41Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > How about: that the White House had evidence that the attack in Benghazi was a consequence of the Internet video. The Republican notion that it was obvious from day one that the attack was preplanned and unrelated to what had occurred in Cairo (which certainly WAS about the video) is massively overstated. Both Al-Jazeera and [Al-Arabiya](http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/09/11/237439.html) reported that there were protests over the video in Benghazi. It’s worth reading what [Newt Gingrich](http://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/2012/09/12/gingrich-egypt-and-libya-attacks-connected-backs-romney-statement-on-pres-obama/) had to say about the attacks at the time: CNN Anchor John Berman asks if Gingrich has proof of there being a connection between demonstrations and attacks in Egypt and Libya. Gingrich replies, “…. Anybody who’s ever studied terrorism will tell you, there’s almost certainly a link. This is a lot like the Danish cartoon outrage a few years ago…. We are faced with enemies who want to defeat the United States and impose their radical views…. How can the US government apologize for a film no one has seen, which is what the Embassy in Cairo did yesterday…. It’s not just about an event in Libya. It’s about a longer war, part of which we were being reminded of yesterday on 9/11.” And Marco Rubio described the events in Cairo and Benghazi as senseless mob violence (see p 78 of the recent email dump - Rubio’s original statement has apparently been scrubbed from the internet). ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/102 "2014-05-03T23:51:40Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > 1. It is very simple to search emails for the word “Benghazi”. Any email system allows you to do that. > 2. Congress subpoenaed any communication connected to the Benghazi events. That email would have showed up in the search. It would take deliberate action for it to be excluded. Well we now know that someone in this thread has never helped an organization respond to a FOIA before. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/103 "2014-05-04T00:47:24Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > Benghazi is not the only or even the central topic. How would it not be the central topic, 5 days after 4 people were killed in an attack? ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/104 "2014-05-04T00:52:46Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Nothing you posted suggest we knew that any one group in particular was responsible… > Knowing involves having incontrovertible evidence that denies any other possibility. There is strong evidence this was a pre-planned attack. There is virtually no evidence that the explanation advanced by the WH - demonstration against a video that got out of hand - accurately explained what happened. So we don’t need to know exactly who was involved to understand that the WH was working to present a false narrative. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/105 "2014-05-04T00:58:01Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > It’s worth reading what [Newt Gingrich](http://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/2012/09/12/gingrich-egypt-and-libya-attacks-connected-backs-romney-statement-on-pres-obama/) had to say about the attacks at the time I’m reluctant to accept Newt G. as any sort of expert on this subject - he comes across as a random politician mouthing off. If you know of any reason this view is inaccurate, I’d be happy to listen to it. ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/106 "2014-05-04T01:07:54Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > How would it not be the central topic, 5 days after 4 people were killed in an attack? 😕 dude how should I know? Presumably the promos (again, page 17 of the PDF containing the. Rhodes email) reflect what the producers of those shows wanted to talk about. Take it up with them. I’m sorry if the facts here don’t conform to your narrative. Example: "Fox News Sunday Anti-US protests are spreading across the Arab world days after a deadly attack on the consulate in Libya. What should the US involvement be in the trouble region? Chris Wallace discusses the disruption with Susan Rice, the US ambassador to the UN." ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/107 "2014-05-04T01:39:35Z")
[quote=“Xema, post:104, topic:687535”] There is virtually no evidence that the explanation advanced by the WH - demonstration against a video that got out of hand - accurately explained what happened.QUOTE] You weaken your argument by overstating this point. From the [AP](http://bigstory.ap.org/article/libyan-witnesses-recount-organized-benghazi-attack/): “There was no sign of a spontaneous protest against an American-made movie denigrating Islam’s Prophet Muhammad. But a lawyer passing by the scene said he saw the militants gathering around 20 youths from nearby to chant against the film. Within an hour or so, the assault began, guns blazing as the militants blasted into the compound.” Totally consistent with Susan Rice’s account - folks showed up to replicate the sort of challenge to America that was occurring in Cairo, which was hijacked by heavily armed extremists. Reuters correspondent Hadeel al-Shalchi, based in Benghazi, via [NPR](http://www.npr.org/2012/09/13/161050137/how-benghazi-is-reacting-to-the-deadly-attacks)on 9/13/12: "In Benghazi at the consulate, the consulate is now not secure at all, like, you can walk in and out of it. And people all day yesterday were doing that. They would come, sort of take a stroll inside the grounds, you know, take pictures and little videos of the damage. The majority of those people said two things. They said, first of all, why did the United States allow something like this movie to happen? Because at the end of the day, almost everybody here believes that it was a reaction to the movie that - and they believe that the United States had a responsibility to stop the production or…" You also weaken your argument by continually repeating, falsely, that the talking points blamed the video. The talking points said that the attack was spontaneously inspired by the protests in Cairo. Was there evidence to that effect? I don’t know, but the CIA’s best guess at the time was that there was a connection. This was never at issue in the State/CIA wrangling over talking points that was discussed upthread. So why aren’t you going after the CIA for saying they believed the attacks were inspired by Cairo, instead of going after the administration? ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/108 "2014-05-04T02:03:52Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > I’m reluctant to accept Newt G. as any sort of expert on this subject - he comes across as a random politician mouthing off. If you know of any reason this view is inaccurate, I’d be happy to listen to it. No, he’s not an expert - that’s not the point. You have presented the issue as if no one without political skin in the game could have thought for a second that Benghazi had anything to do with Cairo. But before “Benghazi” had become a concerted Republican strategy to hammer the president, Newt Gingrich speaking off the cuff in a basically non-partisan way said, yeah, obviously the two are probably connected. Marco Rubio made a similar assessment. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/109 "2014-05-04T02:04:08Z")
I don’t even bother anymore. Republicans are nuts and the people on this message board who are still beating the dead Benghazi horse are nuts, too. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/110 "2014-05-04T02:06:55Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > How would it not be the central topic, 5 days after 4 people were killed in an attack? Because it’s clear that the actual central topic is a partisan witch hunt against Obama. You’ll notice that some conservative Republicans, such as Buck McKeon, the Chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, thinks that Mr. Issa and the Benghazi Truthers are not to be listened to. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/111 "2014-05-04T03:07:40Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > You refuse to read what Susan Rice actually said. > > "But our current best assessment, based on the information that we have at present, is that, in fact, what this began as, it was a spontaneous – not a premeditated – response to what had transpired in Cairo. In Cairo, as you know, a few hours earlier, there was a violent protest that was undertaken in reaction to this very offensive video that was disseminated. > > We believe that folks in Benghazi, a small number of people came to the embassy to – or to the consulate, rather, to replicate the sort of challenge that was posed in Cairo. And then as that unfolded, it seems to have been hijacked, let us say, by some individual clusters of extremists who came with heavier weapons, weapons that as you know in – in the wake of the revolution in Libya are – are quite common and accessible. And it then evolved from there." > > Where does she say that there was a protest in Benghazi? She characterized it as there being “folks who came to the embassy to replicate a challenge” to America. That’s too mendacious for you? What do you think she means by saying they were replicating the protests in Cairo? She states the events in Cairo was a protest and the events in Benghazi replicated Cairo. > [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > By the way, Susan Rice explicitly points out that heavy weaponry got into the hands of extremists precisely thanks to the revolution that OBAMA ENCOURAGED. If they were trying to deflect blame here, they sure weren’t doing a good job. > > Moreover, her statement is 100% consistent with the original CIA talking point, namely, > > “We believe based on currently available information that the attacks in Benghazi were spontaneously inspired by the protests at the U.S. Embassy in Cairo and evolved into a direct assault against the U.S. Consulate and subsequently its annex.” and her statement is 100% inconsistent with the reports of the people who were there under attack. There was no reason to send Susan Rice out in front of TV cameras. She didn’t just stumble in front of a reporter and make a mis-statement. She was tasked with the job and coached with what to say. It’s in direct opposition to what occurred. It was deliberately spun for public consumption. The administration then dragged it’s heals on releasing information. ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/112 "2014-05-04T03:58:09Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What do you think she means by saying they were replicating the protests in Cairo? She states the events in Cairo was a protest and the events in Benghazi replicated Cairo. > > and her statement is 100% inconsistent with the reports of the people who were there under attack. What do I think she means, by Zeus? She’s plainly saying that protesters had just overrun our embassy in Cairo and raised a jihadist black flag above it, and that the administration’s belief–conditional on more information coming to light, presumably within the next few days–was that this success being blared over TVs in Benghazi inspired individuals to show up to replicate “that sort of challenge,” whatever that means; and subsequently heavily armed extremists launched a large-scale attack. By the way, don’t you think it’s odd, if the intention all along was to blame the video, that the talking points themselves don’t even contain any reference to the video itself? > [@](#): > > The currently available information suggests that the demonstrations in Benghazi were spontaneously inspired by the protests at the US Embassy in Cairo and evolved into a direct assault against the US diplomatic post in Benghazi and subsequently its annex. There are indications that extremists participated in the violent demonstrations. > > This assessment may change as additional information is collected and analyzed and as currently available information continues to be evaluated. > > The investigation is on-going, and the US Government is working with Libyan authorities to bring to justice those responsible for the deaths of US citizens. As for the reports of the people who were under attack, can you explain how people taking mortar fire from over 1/4 a mile away are supposed to have detailed insight into the motives of the people firing said mortars? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/113 "2014-05-04T04:25:37Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > What do I think she means, by Zeus? She’s plainly saying that protesters had just overrun our embassy in Cairo and raised a jihadist black flag above it, and that the administration’s belief–conditional on more information coming to light, presumably within the next few days–was that this success being blared over TVs in Benghazi inspired individuals to show up to replicate “that sort of challenge,” whatever that means; and subsequently heavily armed extremists launched a large-scale attack. yes… and the embassy said they were under attack. Not under protest. She didn’t just wander into a TV studio, she was fed a lie and sent out to present it to the public. > [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > By the way, don’t you think it’s odd, if the intention all along was to blame the video, that the talking points themselves don’t even contain any reference to the video itself? No, it’s not odd at all. They blamed the protests on the video. The implication is that is spun out of control. No such event happened at Benghazi. It was an attack from the very beginning. > [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > As for the reports of the people who were under attack, can you explain how people taking mortar fire from over 1/4 a mile away are supposed to have detailed insight into the motives of the people firing said mortars? Yes, the insight is that they’re under attack and it’s not a protest. ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/114 "2014-05-04T04:35:44Z")
Let’s be honest here, Benghazi scandal-allegers. By the standard of “cover up” operative here, the only thing that would have spared the administration at the outset from being accused of a “cover up” is if Susan Rice had gone on those Sunday shows and said something along the following lines: > [@](#): > > Beginning on September 11 (2012) and still ongoing as of today, a number of protests at US diplomatic facilities have occurred globally in reaction to the Innocence of Muslims video, beginning in Egypt and including Yemen, Sudan, Tunisia, India, Indonesia, Pakistan, Niger, the Philippines, and Turkey. > > Also on September 11, shortly after our embassy in Cairo was overrun by protesters, an attack was launched in Benghazi by armed extremists. However, despite the concurrent protests going on in the 10 countries I mentioned, including in nearby Cairo, our best assessment is that the timing of the attack in Benghazi was coincidental and unrelated in any way to the video or to the other protests. > > Our assessment, however counterintuitive on its face, is based on a) the fact that we haven’t yet investigated the attack and b) that we dismiss any contemporaneous reporting by outlets like Al-Arabiya that says there was a video protest in Benghazi. 😕 Isn’t that what she would have HAD to say, in order to avoid triggering this whole controversy? Because in my book, all she said was we _believe_ the attacks in Benghazi fit into the broader context of these protests; but we’re not really sure; it may or may not have been preplanned; it may have been al-Qaeda, or al-Sharia, or both, or a different group yet unnamed; but the investigation is ongoing. I just find it mystifying that a statement so anodyne and ultimately noncommittal can strike anyone as scandalous or even objectionable. ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/115 "2014-05-04T04:43:00Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yes, the insight is that they’re under attack and it’s not a protest. No one said they were attacked by protesters. Susan Rice said they were attacked by heavily armed extremists. No one except the attackers themselves could have known, at the time of the attack, whether the attackers also happened to be pissed about the video. Unless the people at the consulate were cabling back home, “Mayday, mayday - under heavy attack and THEY’RE DEFINITELY NOT PISSED ABOUT THE VIDEO!!!” then I don’t see how “her statement is 100% inconsistent with the reports of the people who were there under attack,” as you put it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/116 "2014-05-04T04:58:32Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > No one said they were attacked by protesters. Susan Rice said they were attacked by heavily armed extremists. she said it was a protest like in Cairo. Which was over the movie. It wasn’t an accident she said this. She was prepped and sent forth to repeat it for public consumption. The WH went out of it’s way to do this. It was orchestrated. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/117 "2014-05-04T05:42:52Z")
It was talking points, given by the experts. You’re flailing around and insisting that whatever you see is outrageous. It’s nonsense. Also, please don’t bring up jet fighters. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/118 "2014-05-04T05:45:35Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > As for the reports of the people who were under attack, can you explain how people taking mortar fire from over 1/4 a mile away are supposed to have detailed insight into the motives of the people firing said mortars? “Listen to the cadence of the shells… This is the dispassionate tempo of hired mercenaries, not the staccato rage of the Jihadi.” ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/119 "2014-05-04T05:53:41Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > How is it “cautious” to put forward an explanation (reaction to internet video) for which no actual evidence had - or has ever - emerged? And yet another report that refutes this: the New York Times [reported](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/13/world/middleeast/us-envoy-to-libya-is-reported-killed.html?_r=0) on Sept. 12, 2012 exactly that kind of evidence. > [@](#): > > Fighters involved in the assault, which was spearheaded by an Islamist brigade formed during last year’s uprising against Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, said in interviews during the battle that they were moved to attack the mission by anger over a 14-minute, American-made video that depicted the Prophet Muhammad, Islam’s founder, as a villainous, homosexual and child-molesting buffoon. How anyone can read this, take note that the story came out the very next day after the attacks, and further note that what Susan Rice said on the Sunday talks shows agrees with it very nicely, and still think there was some attempt by the White House to throw up a smokescreen to cover up what _they really knew happended_, is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535/120 "2014-05-04T06:48:21Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > It was talking points, given by the experts. It was talking points fed to her for the sole purpose of getting out in front of cameras the next day. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-trepidation-benghazi/687535.md?page=7)