With trepidation, Benghazi

Let me ask you this: let’s say you were President during that time, and you couldn’t find OBL. Would you you publicly start that, “Jeeze, we can’t find him. We’re doing everything we can and he’s just outsmarted us”, making him even more of a hero to those who were fans of his. Or would you maybe do what Bush did and publicly minimize the importance of the figurehead while behind the scenes you were doing everything you can to find that motherfucker. I hope it would be the latter. I’m no fan of Bush, but doing that was the wise thing to do.

But it is entertaining that no criticism can be made of Obama without the “Oh, yeah, we’ll how about Bush?!!!” :rolleyes:

It’s not “for some reason” – we know the reason. They put forth that narrative (cautiously, with a lot of statements like ‘we don’t know for sure, and we won’t until the investigation is complete’) because that was what the intelligence agencies were telling them.

“Bush did it too” is not grounds to exonerate Obama if he fucks up, but it’s perfectly valid to compare the phony outrage from Republicans over minor stuff from Obama to their silence over major stuff from Bush.

Shouldn’t this thread be in the Elections forum? That’s what it’s really about, after all.

Except that one of the two deaths at 4:30 WAS one of the would-be rescuers. Glen Doherty was in Tripoli during the first attack; he and a group of CIA types rushed to Benghazi to reinforce the annex. Had there been no response, there would not have been four deaths, because he wouldn’t have been there. (You can argue about whether the number of deaths would have been higher or lower without that reinforcement, but Doherty would not have been among the dead.)

Gen. Ham’s testimony has I believe already been linked above; basically, Africa Command got caught flat-footed. There was no “stand-down” because there was nobody to stand up in the first place–they had no assets on alert that could possibly have made a difference. They scrambled a special forces team from Germany, but that team only made it as far as Sicily before everybody had been evacuated from Benghazi.

There were a few special forces in Tripoli, but they were helping to secure the embassy there (no Marine detachment at the Tripoli embassy). Sending Gibson and his team to Benghazi meant leaving the Tripoli embassy vulnerable–who thinks that would have been a good idea under the circumstances?

In Benghazi, the Americans gathered at the annex, which had relatively better security and fortifications. Apparently, the plan was to hole up there until Africa Command and State figured out something better. (Note that the annex was not breached–Doherty and Woods were killed by mortar fire from some distance away while outside on the roof.) When it became obvious that the annex was not secure, AND the ambassador had been identified and his body retrieved, they hightailed it to the airport.

While they were at the airport, Gibson’s team in Tripoli finished their activities there and became available for reassignment. By this point, though, all four deaths had occurred, the annex had been abandoned, and the entire Benghazi contingent was at the airport. Some were loading into the plane that had brought Doherty’s group hours earlier; Gibson’s crew was sent to the airport at Tripoli to meet them and provide security/medical care to them.

The remaining group in Benghazi waited for a second plane (a Libyan Air Force jet arranged by State). Once everybody got to Tripoli, DoD sent two planes there to remove the evacuees and non-essential Tripoli personnel to Germany.

I think your comments about Susan Rice have already been addressed by others. How would you or anybody else reacted if she had said, “Well, the CIA isn’t sure, but thinks it was probably the video. However, we in the White House think we are much smarter than the intelligence community, and they’re wrong–it was al-Qaeda.”?

For that matter, the Senate’s report earlier this year noted, “It remains unclear if any group or person exercised overall command and control of the attacks or whether extremist group leaders directed their members to participate. Some intelligence suggests the attacks were likely put together in short order, following that day’s violent protests in Cairo against an inflammatory video.”

That still seems to be the most common conclusion: 9/11/01 was planned for years, but 9/11/2012 was an opportunistic assault by individuals having only loose ties to any organized terror organization.

Why do you give Bush the benefit of the doubt that he was playing coy as part of a larger strategy but not assume that Obama is doing the same?

You aren’t criticizing Obama. You’re flatly and ignorantly asserting that whatever action he took is suspect and or wrong. You’re being a creationist. You’re starting with the conclusion, that Obama was horribly wrong, and working backwards to try and justify it.

The reason Bush is brought up, is that by your absurd standards, Bush was so immeasurably worse, that you look like a hypocrite for remaining quiet about him, while screaming about Obama.

Hey magellan! Let me tell you a little something my friend …
… uh, nevermind … four other posters (who actually understand my point) already shoved it back in your face, so we’re cool.

It seems to me that part of the GOP’s game is:
[ol]
[li] Take an event which claimed four American lives.[/li][li] Ask Democrats nitpicky questions about the trivialities of some talking points.[/li][li] Get the respondents to dismiss the questions out of exasperation.[/li][li] Extract exasperated soundbites (“Dude, that was two years ago”, “What difference does it make?”).[/li][li] Couple that dismissiveness to the actual deaths as if they were the subject at hand. Instant outrage![/li][/ol]

In some ways, it’s a brilliant means of smear, and I’m surprised neither party had ever tried it before, since every event in history has some details one can nitpick. I can think of a couple reasons why.

One is that the part where you nitpick requires that your base actually care about the nitpicks to some extent, so only certain rare situations allow for the trick. You couldn’t *literally *ask Bill Clinton / Ronald Reagan questions about what tie he wore when the USS Cole / Beirut barracks were attacked. Even if from my perspective that’s what the GOP is doing with the current White House, it’s not that way from everyone’s perspective. Some people really do grant life-and-death importance to certain word choices. (I probably do it myself, for different areas of word choice.)

That leads to my other reason. I think something about 9/11 and other events helped make it more acceptable for politicians to politicize these crises, even in ways that go beyond “How can we prevent this?” and more into the optics area. In fact, it’s possible that as a nation we’ve become numb to the idea of preventing tragedies at all. And when you lose the hope of “never again” (even in the lens of “If only my side were in charge this wouldn’t have happened!”) all that’s left is caring about which signals your leaders emit, whether those are pro- or anti-gun, or involve the word “terrorist”, or touch on religion or taxation or whatever.

Possibly relating to that, one comment from a few days ago got my attention, and I don’t think anyone else responded on this particular point.

This line of thought, for me, is another frustrating/odd element of the brouhaha. Many conservatives seem to think that if a liberal says “Those Muslims killed those people out of anger at a video”, the implication from the liberal is there is no first-amendment right to make such videos. As opposed to the possibility which should so without saying, that the Muslims in question are obviously murderers without excuse. I guess that unlike a conservative, a liberal can’t think that any Muslim might be over-reacting, because they luvv them some Muslim terrorists, right? (See also “Where are all the moderate Muslims who condemn violence?”, a question which assumes quite a lot of bad faith, in both sense of “faith”.)

After 9/11, many people said “They hate our freedom”. Were they implying that freedom is a bad thing or an “excuse for murder”?

In the broader context, I can kind of understand the point being made here, because a lot of different people in government had indeed expressed issues with that particular video (which was a really awful piece of work) and with religious hatred in general. Such attempts to diffuse tensions make complete sense, especially when there are lots of people in the world who look at the US and its president in the worst possible light, and would jump all over any lack of condemning the hateful film as a tacit approval. (Of course, as their Benghazi actions show, Republicans wouldn’t know anything about thinking in such terms.)

But regardless, “Blaming the video for the attack means sympathizing with the attackers and hating free expression” is a weird argument to make because no one disagrees about the simple fact that people have, throughout history, committed violence in retaliation for free expression they disliked. If in fact the entire Benghazi incident had been 100% anti-film protest and 0% anything else, would the president be obligated to lie that the video had nothing to do with it? Or would it be okay to say they were killing over a video, but not to say anything negative about the video itself? (Even if directly asked their opinion.)

What if the president endorsed the video, saying “That’s right, screw you, Islam!”? Would that satisfy today’s GOP, or would it be too conciliatory to terrorists?

I doubt these hearings are going to sway any voters in November no matter how they go.

Next time you’re on the street and you hear someone talking about Benghazi, ask them were it is. When they pause, say, “Isn’t in in Kenya?”

Ans: “Yeah, Kenya. That sounds right.” :slight_smile:

For your viewing pleasure: here you go.

Thanks. I haven’t seen a spewing partisan hack since I switched of Fox ‘News’ last night.

The composition of the select committee on the Republican side tells you everything you need to know about what this is really about. Where are the elder statesmen or credible foreign policy types? Either such people weren’t asked to participate or they turned down the opportunity outright.

We’ve got nine pages of people dissecting those lies and distortions already. Why did you think that putting them on a video would make anyone feel differently about them?

Does that video include the quote of Gowdy saying it will be a nonpartisan investigation? Look, everyone knows if you want to take most politics out of an investigation, either appoint statesmen like members on an even ratio, or start an independent commission without elected members serving on it.

It is so transparently ridiculous to make a panel with a built-in Republican advantage, where half the Republicans have a history of extreme partisanship, and then claim the committee has nothing to do with politics.

He was lying about the requests for more troops, the deployment of troops, was utterly insane about asking why Rice was on talkshows, and was delusional about wondering how “the video” was suspected. In short, he was selling lies and vapid stupidity.

Only someone gullible, uninformed or irrational would think that was persuasive.

So you get repeatedly smacked down for a silly comment, and your response is to post this drivel?

Because of how ignorant and angry the average Republican is. Look at this thread, intelligent people who should know better are still parroting misinformation years after the events.

The GOP is putting on this pretend investigation because two years from now, it will be common knowledge that “the investigation” produced proof Obama garroted Stevens personally, or whatever nonsense they come up with.

Because the GOP is so universally ignorant and delusional, you don’t need real evidence, you just need a prop that you can point to.

Surely you don’t mean this quote:

He’s trying to backtrack, in his later appearances on his party’s TV channel.

I was particularly amused by the smirking little dweeb behind the speaker, who was attempting to be solemn. Kind of sez it all. Anyone know who that twit was?