# With which German party would you identfiy with? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 22, 2015, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-which-german-party-would-you-identfiy-with/723105 "2015-06-22T00:02:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-which-german-party-would-you-identfiy-with/723105/21 "2015-06-23T13:59:44Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I was still divided into egg and sperm in those heady days, but the late '80s aren’t ancient history either-millions from those days are still alive and certainly make up the overwhelming majority of people who are in some seat of power and influence. Millions of Greens were _not_ paedophiles. Not even all the members of _BAG SchwuP_ were. It was an umbrella org for _all_ outsider sexualities - gays and transexuals too. So there _was_ some degree of being too accommodating of fringe groups in the past - but not such a strange thing in a party as brand new as the Greens were at the time. And _who_ from _BAG Schwup_ is _currently_ in the Green leadership? And yes, the 80s _are_ far enough away to be another country in politics. Hell, the whole furore about Kevin Jennings was an issue for the _current_ US administration, is that going to stop anyone voting Democrat? No, sensible people probably realise it was a pretty baseless attack by the Right made up of lies and half-truths. The notion that Bag Schwub was ever anything but a now-repudiated embarrassing fringe to the Greens is the same. > [@](#): > > Considering Japan’s moving full steam ahead with nuclear power plants despite Fukushima and that Ukraine upgraded and expanded its nuclear capacity after 1986 , it doesn’t provide much of a excuse for a country less affected. At 30% renewable energy (set to rise past 50% in the near future) Germany doesn’t _need_ an excuse. There’s nothing anti-science about their energy path. The opposite, in fact ( speaking as someone who dabbles in sustainability issues from a scientific perspective ). > [@](#): > > I’m certainly not against foreign immigration and Germany’s policy in accepting refugees from many parts of the globe is certainly commendable, but European societies are less accustomed (compared to America or Canada) with assimilating large immigrant populations and large unassimilated populations tend to become pockets of poverty, crime, and radicalism on the one hand while encouraging nativist political movements on the other. So you’re not against it, except you are? I’m getting mixed signals from that paragraph. Multiculturalism works for US (:dubious:) & Canada but _can’t_ in Germany? A country where 1 in 5 people is of some immigrant stock? The second most popular immigrant destination worldwide is somehow less capable of dealing with immigrants than the US? Because of reasons that have to do with the Greens? > [@](#): > > For better or worse, political studies do indicate that there’s less support for social welfare legislation when the perceived benefactors are the “Other”-hence why the more racially diverse United States has been tardy in developing one compared to more homogeneous Europe. I don’t think you understand European perceptions very well - they are just as capable of Othering as Americans, the breakdown just doesn’t have to be along racial lines. Hell, lots of Germans of my acquaintance semi-seriously Other non-immigrant Germans _because they’re not from the same state_. I gather this is sometimes less semi- and more serious, too. Europeans developed better welfare systems than the US for a multitude of reasons. But the reason you’re postulating - why does it work for Canada? Not too diverse enough? > [@](#): > > As for the hipster crowd, the “Don’t Trust Anyone Over Thirty” rule is long dead-to the modern college students of today, the veterans of the '60s be they feminist professors, “progressive” politicians, or rock stars are sages and philosophers. I don’t think you understand my point. Let me phrase it as a question: for what reason do you associate the word “hipsterism” with the Greens? ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-which-german-party-would-you-identfiy-with/723105/22 "2015-06-23T14:39:27Z")
Sounds like I would be throwing my vote away on Alternative for Germany. But none fit that well. I’m surprised the top two both have the word Christian in them. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-which-german-party-would-you-identfiy-with/723105/23 "2015-06-23T15:09:20Z")
> [@control-z](#): > > Sounds like I would be throwing my vote away on Alternative for Germany. But none fit that well. I’m surprised the top two both have the word Christian in them. The Christian Social Union (CSU) just happens to be the Bavarian flavor of the Christian Democratic Union (CDU). It is a completely separate organization, though. The _Alternative für Deutschland_ (AfD) (“Alternative for Germany”) is a fairly new group and nobody really knows where this is going. There are two factions in the AfD: A very fiscally conservative faction (much more so than the FDP) and a socially conservative faction: these are conservatives who where abandoned by the CDU when it moved to the center/the left. ---
**Author:** ![bb49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b38774/32.png) [@bb49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bb49)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-which-german-party-would-you-identfiy-with/723105/24 "2015-06-23T22:35:47Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Oktoberfest! The only party worth considering! ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-which-german-party-would-you-identfiy-with/723105/25 "2015-06-24T00:27:11Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > The Christian Social Union (CSU) just happens to be the Bavarian flavor of the Christian Democratic Union (CDU). It is a completely separate organization, though. > > The _Alternative für Deutschland_ (AfD) (“Alternative for Germany”) is a fairly new group and nobody really knows where this is going. There are two factions in the AfD: A very fiscally conservative faction (much more so than the FDP) and a socially conservative faction: these are conservatives who where abandoned by the CDU when it moved to the center/the left. Not to forget the outright xenophobic faction which makes up for a lot of the appeal to potential mindless voters. But OTOH, the former conservatives of the CDU fit right in there. Good riddance. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-which-german-party-would-you-identfiy-with/723105/26 "2015-06-24T09:40:52Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Millions of Greens were _not_ paedophiles. Not even all the members of _BAG SchwuP_ were. It was an umbrella org for _all_ outsider sexualities - gays and transexuals too. So there _was_ some degree of being too accommodating of fringe groups in the past - but not such a strange thing in a party as brand new as the Greens were at the time. And _who_ from _BAG Schwup_ is _currently_ in the Green leadership? > > And yes, the 80s _are_ far enough away to be another country in politics. Hell, the whole furore about Kevin Jennings was an issue for the _current_ US administration, is that going to stop anyone voting Democrat? No, sensible people probably realise it was a pretty baseless attack by the Right made up of lies and half-truths. The notion that Bag Schwub was ever anything but a now-repudiated embarrassing fringe to the Greens is the same. I never said a large chunk of Green Party members were pedophiles or that most members of Bag SchwuP were. But its clear the then Green leadership tacitly tolerated pedophiles. > [@](#): > > At 30% renewable energy (set to rise past 50% in the near future) Germany doesn’t _need_ an excuse. There’s nothing anti-science about their energy path. The opposite, in fact ( speaking as someone who dabbles in sustainability issues from a scientific perspective ) Ignoring the various environmental sideeffects of at certain renewable energy types (such as making solar panels), its clear that Germany would be even less dependent on fossil fuels were nuclear power actually embraced, as is the case with neighbour France. > [@](#): > > .So you’re not against it, except you are? I’m getting mixed signals from that paragraph. > Multiculturalism works for US (:dubious:) & Canada but _can’t_ in Germany? A country where 1 in 5 people is of some immigrant stock? The second most popular immigrant destination worldwide is somehow less capable of dealing with immigrants than the US? Actually I’m against multiculturalism in virtually all cases-the success of the US lay in being able to incorporate most ethnic immigrant groups into its “melting pot” and assimilating them into the mainstream of American life. And looking up the “immigrant stock” statistic, that apparently includes the ethnic Germans who were expelled from Eastern Europe after World War 2 and their descendants. > [@](#): > > Because of reasons that have to do with the Greens?I don’t think you understand European perceptions very well - they are just as capable of Othering as Americans, the breakdown just doesn’t have to be along racial lines. Hell, lots of Germans of my acquaintance semi-seriously Other non-immigrant Germans _because they’re not from the same state_. I gather this is sometimes less semi- and more serious, too. The question is how serious is this Othering? Is it enough to seem them as disproportiontae beneficiaries of social welfare legislation? That’s partially the case (it seems to me) in Italy, for the Northern Italians. > [@](#): > > Europeans developed better welfare systems than the US for a multitude of reasons. But the reason you’re postulating - why does it work for Canada? Not too diverse enough? Because 1) most nonwhite immigration came to Canada fairly recently thus after much of the infrastructure of the Canadian welfare state was built up, 2) immigrant populations to Canada were disproportionately middle-class, and 3) no history of slavery and as a result not large ethnic group that makes up roughly 10-15% of the population that was continuously discriminated against for centuries and consequently socioeconomically disadvantaged (and thus perceived as beneficiaries of social welfare legislation). > [@](#): > > I don’t think you understand my point. Let me phrase it as a question: for what reason do you associate the word “hipsterism” with the Greens? Their electoral base? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-which-german-party-would-you-identfiy-with/723105/27 "2015-06-24T14:46:10Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I never said a large chunk of Green Party members were pedophiles or that most members of Bag SchwuP were. What’s the point of bringing up the “overwhelming majority of people” then, if they weren’t at fault? > [@](#): > > But its clear the then Green leadership tacitly tolerated pedophiles. Key word there: “then”. Who in the _current_ Green leadership was a leader “then”? Who in the _current_ Green leadership[ endorsed paedophilia? > [@](#): > > Ignoring the various environmental sideeffects of at certain renewable energy types (such as making solar panels) Trivial compared to the side-effects of nuclear… > [@](#): > > , its clear that Germany would be even less dependent on fossil fuels were nuclear power actually embraced, as is the case with neighbour France. It would also be falling far short of the “23% by 2020” goal, as France is. France has gone down a different path than Germany. What about that is “anti-science” as you’ve labelled it? > [@](#): > > Actually I’m against multiculturalism in virtually all cases-the success of the US Really? American Exceptionalism is going to be your defence? > [@](#): > > The question is how serious is this Othering? No, the actual question you skipped over was - _what does this have to do with the Greens in particular_, the other major German parties are also multiculturalists. > [@](#): > > Is it enough to seem them as disproportiontae beneficiaries of social welfare legislation? Quite possibly - remember, they’ve only been a (re-)unified country for a few decades, and before that, only been unified for 150 years. Before that, they were The Germanies. > [@](#): > > Their electoral base? Only if your idea of hipster is “[businessmen who live in a big city, aged 34-42…](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_%2790/The_Greens#Electorate)” ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-which-german-party-would-you-identfiy-with/723105/28 "2015-06-24T22:14:36Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > What’s the point of bringing up the “overwhelming majority of people” then, if they weren’t at fault? > > Key word there: “then”. Who in the _current_ Green leadership was a leader “then”? Who in the _current_ Green leadership[ endorsed paedophilia? Because the Green Party as a whole did tolerate and condone those advocating pedophilia legalization. People still bring up racist doctrines Southern Protestants and Mormons held to until the 1960s and '70s. > [@](#): > > Trivial compared to the side-effects of nuclear… Not really if you consider that Chernobyl is more due to late Soviet incompetence than anything else and Fukushima was literally the Worst Case Scenario ™ yet the latter’s effects have been very minimal. > [@](#): > > It would also be falling far short of the “23% by 2020” goal, as France is. France has gone down a different path than Germany. What about that is “anti-science” as you’ve labelled it? The “23% by 2020” sets up a silly binary between nuclear and other types of clean energy by not including the former. > [@](#): > > Really? American Exceptionalism is going to be your defence? No, since I think the case is the same with other countries made of largely immigrant populations (ie Australia, Canada etc.). > [@](#): > > No, the actual question you skipped over was - _what does this have to do with the Greens in particular_, the other major German parties are also multiculturalists. Chancellor Merkel for one seems to have rejected multiculturalism: [http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-11559451](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-11559451) > [@](#): > > Quite possibly - remember, they’ve only been a (re-)unified country for a few decades, and before that, only been unified for 150 years. Before that, they were The Germanies. Despite that, the concept of a German nation has existed since at least Napoleonic times if not before that-in contrast to the American black population which was excluded from the American mainstream until the last half-century. > [@](#): > > Only if your idea of hipster is “[businessmen who live in a big city, aged 34-42…](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_%2790/The_Greens#Electorate)” [/QUOTE] As well as most of the well-known German college towns and youths in general according to the link. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-which-german-party-would-you-identfiy-with/723105/29 "2015-06-25T00:58:28Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > The Christian Social Union (CSU) just happens to be the Bavarian flavor of the Christian Democratic Union (CDU). It is a completely separate organization, though. The US has the same or a similar situation. Minnesota has the Democratic–Farmer–Labor Party and North Dakota has the Democratic-Nonpartisan League Party, both of which are the local Democrats. New York has the Conservative Party, which is slightly more separate but often just endorses the Republican candidate. The far-right Constitution Party has operated under several different names in different areas, most prominently in California until 2008 as the “American Independent Party,” which got a lot of their registered members from people who thought that they were declining to state a party! A lot of these names come up from mergers. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-which-german-party-would-you-identfiy-with/723105/30 "2015-06-25T04:53:39Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Because the Green Party as a whole did tolerate and condone those advocating pedophilia legalization. Again, in the early 80s. Nothing to do with the Greens today > [@](#): > > People still bring up racist doctrines Southern Protestants and Mormons held to until the 1960s and '70s. People are dumb (or linking it to current attitudes, like all that Confederate Flag shit going down now, or Mormon homophobia) > [@](#): > > Not really if you consider that Chernobyl is more due to late Soviet incompetence than anything else and Fukushima was literally the Worst Case Scenario ™ yet the latter’s effects have been very minimal. If you think I was only talking about _disasters_, then solar is looking even better. But I wasn’t, and there are way more environmental costs associated with running nuclear than solar. Way, way more. > [@](#): > > The “23% by 2020” sets up a silly binary between nuclear and other types of clean energy by not including the former. It’s specifically about renewable energy. A worthy goal seperate from any “clean” energy (which Nuclear is generally _not_) > [@](#): > > No, since I think the case is the same with other countries made of largely immigrant populations (ie Australia, Canada etc.). You think multiculturalism has been a _success_ in Australia? > [@](#): > > Chancellor Merkel for one seems to have rejected multiculturalism: [http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-11559451](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-11559451) Her party hasn’t actually changed any policies, have they? But I stand corrected, looks like they’re much more “Right” than “Centre” > [@](#): > > Despite that, the concept of a German nation has existed since at least Napoleonic times if not before that-in contrast to the American black population which was excluded from the American mainstream until the last half-century. Wait, when you’re talking multiculturalism in America, you’re talking about a _homegrown, natively American_ culture like Black culture, not, say, Hmong culture? > [@](#): > > As well as most of the well-known German college towns and youths in general according to the link. That doesn’t change the average age of participation. Nor are most college students “hipsters”. Did you mean “hippies”? ---
**Author:** ![MaverocK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@MaverocK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaverocK)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-which-german-party-would-you-identfiy-with/723105/31 "2015-10-04T04:44:17Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > BTW, don’t be fooled by the designation **Christian** in **Christian** Democratic Union (CDU). This is merely a historical relict. The party is open to adherents of all religions. The majority of the membership is to a fairly large extent as secular and agnostic as the rest of the country, although I’m not aware of any militant atheists in the CDU, as opposed to the Green party or the “Left” (i. e. the communists). > > Traditionally, if you are fiscally conservative, but don’t believe in God (implying that the Christian Democrats aren’t really your cup of tea), you would join the Free Democrats (FDP). Do you know any militant atheists in the Green Party? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-which-german-party-would-you-identfiy-with/723105/32 "2015-10-04T04:55:40Z")
The Greens, probably. But I’m not that familiar with German politics. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-which-german-party-would-you-identfiy-with/723105/33 "2015-10-04T05:44:00Z")
If Trump supporters were honest, they’d answer, “NSDAP.” ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-which-german-party-would-you-identfiy-with/723105/34 "2015-10-04T05:50:15Z")
NSDAP is not a current party in the German Federal Republic. Do you mean [NPD](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Democratic_Party_of_Germany)? ---
**Author:** ![Futurist110](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e4f/32.png) [@Futurist110](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futurist110)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-which-german-party-would-you-identfiy-with/723105/35 "2015-10-04T06:46:26Z")
> [@MaverocK](#): > > If you translate your political views in the Germany’s political context, which party would be likely to represent your ideas/views/perspective/whatever? Probably Die Partei. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Futurist110](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e4f/32.png) [@Futurist110](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futurist110)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-which-german-party-would-you-identfiy-with/723105/36 "2015-10-04T06:47:27Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > NSDAP is not a current party in the German Federal Republic. Except in the dreams of some old ex-Nazis, that is. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-which-german-party-would-you-identfiy-with/723105/37 "2015-10-04T06:56:05Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > If Trump supporters were honest, they’d answer, “NSDAP.” A lot of them would be in Die Linke tbh. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-which-german-party-would-you-identfiy-with/723105/38 "2015-10-04T10:02:00Z")
> [@MaverocK](#): > > Do you know any militant atheists in the Green Party? Oh yes. I actually only know two Green politicians personally (they are members of our local city council), one is a devout atheist, the other one I don’t know, but he was raised protestant. On the (top) Federal level, politicians will often declare themselves to be “without religious affiliation”. But interestingly enough, there are traditionally quite a few (lay) members of church bodies who are also prominent left-wing politicians. At least three Chairmen of the Council of the Evangelical Church in Germany (EKD) in the past have been members of the Social Democratic Party (SPD). Mainstream protestantism in Germany is very much associated with the SPD and the Green party. That might be one of the reasons that prominent left-wing politicians would be reluctant to openly mock the Church (at least the protestant Church), since these are their allies. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-which-german-party-would-you-identfiy-with/723105/39 "2015-10-05T03:03:47Z")
Probably the SPD. The CDU and a couple of others sound all right as well - as in maybe not my first choice, but I could live with them. Thanks for this thread. Neat question. (Man am I sick of the American two-party system!) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-which-german-party-would-you-identfiy-with/723105.md?page=1)