# "without any explainable lawful purpose" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 18, 2009, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/without-any-explainable-lawful-purpose/503483 "2009-07-18T22:37:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Telcontar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@Telcontar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telcontar)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/without-any-explainable-lawful-purpose/503483/1 "2009-07-18T22:37:58Z")
I was recently reading up on weapons related laws and came across a curious phrase in the new jersey state code: 2C:39-3. Prohibited weapons and devices Certain weapons. Any person who knowingly has in his possession any gravity knife, switchblade knife, dagger, dirk, stiletto, billy, blackjack, metal knuckle, sandclub, slingshot, cestus or similar leather band studded with metal filings or razor blades imbedded in wood, ballistic knife, without any explainable lawful purpose, is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree. [http://lis.njleg.state.nj.us/cgi-bin/om\_isapi.dll?clientID=138311&Depth=2&TD=WRAP&advquery=knife&depth=4&expandheadings=on&headingswithhits=on&hitsperheading=on&infobase=statutes.nfo&rank=&record={1A0B}&softpage=Doc\_Frame\_PG42&wordsaroundhits=2&x=0&y=0&zz=](http://lis.njleg.state.nj.us/cgi-bin/om_isapi.dll?clientID=138311&Depth=2&TD=WRAP&advquery=knife&depth=4&expandheadings=on&headingswithhits=on&hitsperheading=on&infobase=statutes.nfo&rank=&record=%7B1A0B%7D&softpage=Doc_Frame_PG42&wordsaroundhits=2&x=0&y=0&zz=) Any idea what “explainable lawful purpose” might mean? I’m picture an 8 year old with a toy slingshot, a 30 year old wearing a 8 inch knife as part of a costume, and shifty looking 22 year old carrying a blackjack for “self defense.” Who’s in the clear? Such an odd law. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/without-any-explainable-lawful-purpose/503483/2 "2009-07-18T22:51:09Z")
Maybe carrying a [kirpan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirpan)? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/without-any-explainable-lawful-purpose/503483/3 "2009-07-18T22:58:04Z")
The phrase “without any explainable lawful purpose” means that the defendant possessed it for its unlawful use as a weapon. What non-weapon, lawful uses one might have for these items is not specifically contemplated by the statute, and is up to a judge. But we can imagine things like a martial arts exhibition, theater performance, cutting pineapples, etc. From _State v. Dunlap_, 181 N.J. Super. 71 (1981): > [@](#): > > The Legislature has determined that the weapons listed in N.J.S.A. 2C:39-3(e) are so inherently dangerous that mere possession is prohibited. These are weapons per se and the presumption that they are in the defendant’s possession for their use as a weapon logically flows from proof that they were in his possession. Nonetheless, in allowing the accused to offer an explainable lawful purpose, the Legislature has provided a means by which he may rebut the presumption against him. It is for the court to determine as a matter of law whether the proffered purpose is lawful. If the court determines it to be a lawful use, it will instruct the jury that, if they believe the explanation is fact, their verdict should be “not guilty.” > > . . . > > Under the prior statute, when a defendant was charged with possession of a weapon which is not dangerous per se, the State was required to show it was dangerous under the circumstances, that the accused possessed the knife for its use as a weapon. The new statute proscribes only those weapons which are dangerous per se and thus relieves the state of showing possession is with intent to use it as a weapon. A commonsense reading of the statute allows an accused the opportunity to go forward with an explanation that he did not possess the instrument for its use as a weapon. ---
**Author:** ![IAmNotSpartacus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@IAmNotSpartacus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAmNotSpartacus)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/without-any-explainable-lawful-purpose/503483/4 "2009-07-19T02:03:13Z")
Collector, museum docent, academic researcher, studio props…lots of folks could have an explainable lawful purpose. Does NJ articulate what it considers as lawful purposes? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/without-any-explainable-lawful-purpose/503483/5 "2009-07-19T06:15:09Z")
probably not - because as you point out, there are so many different explainable lawful purposes. Use of that phrase in the statute gives the courts the discretion to define those lawful purposes on a case-by-case basis. It doesn’t strike me as an unusual drafting technique. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/without-any-explainable-lawful-purpose/503483/6 "2009-07-19T06:36:37Z")
Any knife could be listed as a dagger. ---
**Author:** ![IAmNotSpartacus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@IAmNotSpartacus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAmNotSpartacus)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/without-any-explainable-lawful-purpose/503483/7 "2009-07-19T06:47:51Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Any knife could be listed as a dagger. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Philosopher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3ec8ea/32.png) [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Philosopher)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/without-any-explainable-lawful-purpose/503483/8 "2009-07-19T13:50:54Z")
It’s pretty intuitive really - if someone’s carrying a knife, but they can prove they’re a carpenter on the way to a job and it’s one of their tools, that’d be an ‘explainable lawful purpose’; if you catch a guy with a crowbar but he can prove he’s a mechanic on the way to the garage that’d be lawful; if you have a slingshot but you can prove you’re going hunting (and hunting is legal) then that’s fine, etc. On the other hand, I watched a guy getting arrested for carrying a knife, and he used the ‘I’m a carpenter’ excuse; the police said, “why do you need to have your knife on you, in your jacket, at 11pm on a saturday night, outside a club?” :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/without-any-explainable-lawful-purpose/503483/9 "2009-07-19T18:09:46Z")
> [@IAmNotSpartacus](#): > > Cite? dagger Noun 1. a short knifelike weapon with a double-edged pointed blade 2. a character (†) used to indicate a cross-reference 3. at daggers drawn in a state of open hostility 4. look daggers to glare with hostility [origin unknown] I suppose it depends on the definition but almost all knives are double edged and have a point. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/without-any-explainable-lawful-purpose/503483/10 "2009-07-19T18:19:25Z")
> [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](#): > > On the other hand, I watched a guy getting arrested for carrying a knife, and he used the ‘I’m a carpenter’ excuse; the police said, “why do you need to have your knife on you, in your jacket, at 11pm on a saturday night, outside a club?” :smack: Isn’t carrying it for the utility value of it a legitimate reason? I always carry a knife. Always. Use it all the time. ---
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/without-any-explainable-lawful-purpose/503483/11 "2009-07-19T18:26:05Z")
FWIW, California defines “dirk or dagger” the following way: > [@](#): > > California Penal Code section 12020(c)(24) > > As used in this section, a “dirk” or “dagger” means a knife or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death. A nonlocking folding knife, a folding knife that is not prohibited by Section 653k, or a pocketknife is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death only if the blade of the knife is exposed and locked into position." In the section, the Penal Code prohibits carrying any _concealed_ dirk or dagger. So you’re good as long as you’re keeping that knife obvious on you (probably in a sheath?) and not waving it around publicly in an area you shouldn’t be (assault). ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/without-any-explainable-lawful-purpose/503483/12 "2009-07-19T18:38:19Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > dagger > Noun > > 1. a short knifelike weapon with a double-edged pointed blade > 2. a character (†) used to indicate a cross-reference > 3. at daggers drawn in a state of open hostility > 4. look daggers to glare with hostility [origin unknown] > > I suppose it depends on the definition but almost all knives are double edged and have a point. I dunno, the vast majority of knives I’ve encountered, including a number of combat knives, have typically only had a single sharpened edge on them, with the back edge being flat with no cutting surface. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/without-any-explainable-lawful-purpose/503483/13 "2009-07-19T18:53:26Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > I dunno, the vast majority of knives I’ve encountered, including a number of combat knives, have typically only had a single sharpened edge on them, with the back edge being flat with no cutting surface. Here again, it depends on how you read the definition. The blade of most knives are sharpened double-edged (I have some that are single edged like scissors). The picture in my cite was a double edged blade (sharpened on one side). ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/without-any-explainable-lawful-purpose/503483/14 "2009-07-19T19:06:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Here again, it depends on how you read the definition. The blade of most knives are sharpened double-edged (I have some that are single edged like scissors). The picture in my cite was a double edged blade (sharpened on one side). 😕 Double-edged blade generally means a blade two cutting surfaces, i.e., if you hold the blade out horizontally away from you, both the left and right edges are sharpened and capable of cutting. Single-edged means that only one of those edges is sharpened. Short double-edged blades are usually classified as daggers; similar blades with a single edge are usually considered to be knives. This classification applies regardless of how the edge itself is sharpened. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/without-any-explainable-lawful-purpose/503483/15 "2009-07-19T20:10:35Z")
> [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](#): > > It’s pretty intuitive really - if someone’s carrying a knife, but they can prove they’re a carpenter on the way to a job and it’s one of their tools, that’d be an ‘explainable lawful purpose’; if you catch a guy with a crowbar but he can prove he’s a mechanic on the way to the garage that’d be lawful; if you have a slingshot but you can prove you’re going hunting (and hunting is legal) then that’s fine, etc. I’m a chef and I own my own set of knives, which I carry in a special knife case. They’re fairly expensive knives, so I take them home with me each day. I live only three blocks from work, and occasionally I walk to and from the job, so I have to be prepared to “explain myself” if a cop decides to stop me for some reason and wants to know why I’m carrying all these knives. Of course, they’re pretty obviously kitchen knives, not intended as weapons. > [@magnusblitz](#): > > n the section, the Penal Code prohibits carrying any _concealed_ dirk or dagger. So you’re good as long as you’re keeping that knife obvious on you (probably in a sheath?) and not waving it around publicly in an area you shouldn’t be (assault). I had to ask a city cop about this kind of thing (I’m in central Washington, however). For a while I was collecting decorative swords, purchased from a shop a few blocks from my house. I didn’t have a car at the time, so I had to walk home with my purchases. I also carried them with me now and then when walking to a neighbor’s house to play Dungeons & Dragons, to show them to my fellow gamers. So I asked the cop if there was any city or state ordinance prohibiting my carrying them in public like that, and he essentially said that as long as they were sheathed and I wasn’t waving them around, there shouldn’t be any problem. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/without-any-explainable-lawful-purpose/503483/16 "2009-07-19T21:13:39Z")
> [@IAmNotSpartacus](#): > > Collector, museum docent, academic researcher, studio props…lots of folks could have an explainable lawful purpose. Does NJ articulate what it considers as lawful purposes? In the law quote from the OP, it says that people are forbidden from having the listed weapons in their possesion. Does this mean in legal context to own, even if the dagger is at home in a closed and safe glass case; or does it mean to carry around? Because I can see why the lawmakers and police consider carrying (esp. concealed) special kinds of weapons dangerous, collecting them and keeping them at home is different, no? ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/without-any-explainable-lawful-purpose/503483/17 "2009-07-20T01:39:31Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > In the law quote from the OP, it says that people are forbidden from having the listed weapons in their possesion. Does this mean in legal context to own, even if the dagger is at home in a closed and safe glass case; or does it mean to carry around? Because I can see why the lawmakers and police consider carrying (esp. concealed) special kinds of weapons dangerous, collecting them and keeping them at home is different, no? I would suggest that it all depends on context and circumstance. For example, at the gun range I once belonged to, I (as a safety officer of the range) could give–that is, physically hand over–a firearm to a new member who had never before used a firearm. This meant that technically, a person who had no license of any sort could “possess” a firearm on our range. But they were possessing and shooting under my, and other range officers’, supervision. That was fine under the law (note that “the law” may differ in your jurisdiction.) But if I, at home, was to hand my favourite rifle to my wife (who has no firearms license or documentation allowing her to “possess” a firearm), who might then carry it around the house (an unlicensed-for-shooting area), that might be a different story. This is, as I implied, very much a “depends on circumstance and location” question. I happen to live in a jurisdiction that regulates possession and use of firearms to the max; although I recognize that not all members of the SDMB are subject to such restrictions. You have a good question, **constanze** , but you have to realize that the states and provinces of the various nations involved may give you very different answers. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/without-any-explainable-lawful-purpose/503483/18 "2009-07-20T01:53:29Z")
I think the funny part is this. This is basically a note in the law telling the judge, jury, and prosecuter to be reasonable and exercise some (gasp) judgement rather than obey the letter of the law to the nth degree. Extreme I know…but whatcha going to do? Basically, this is saying XYZ is illegal, but if you have an actual reason for doing/having XYZ here is your legal technical “out”. Legal beagles. Frackin geniuses I tells ya. ---
**Author:** ![IAmNotSpartacus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@IAmNotSpartacus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAmNotSpartacus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/without-any-explainable-lawful-purpose/503483/19 "2009-07-20T02:24:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I suppose it depends on the definition but almost all knives are double edged and have a point. Curiously, your citation does not support your claim. I don’t think “any” knife could be described as a dagger. I think most knives are not daggers. The knife in my pocket has only one edge, are you suggesting it’s special or rare or something? ---
**Author:** ![lazybratsche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ba8739/32.png) [@lazybratsche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lazybratsche)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/without-any-explainable-lawful-purpose/503483/20 "2009-07-20T12:32:00Z")
> [@IAmNotSpartacus](#): > > Curiously, your citation does not support your claim. I don’t think “any” knife could be described as a dagger. I think most knives are not daggers. > > The knife in my pocket has only one edge, are you suggesting it’s special or rare or something? Seconded. I have a number of pocket knives, utility knives, and kitchen knives, and all of them have a single edge. One has a [clip point](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clip_point), but it’s not sharpened at all. Even a lot of combat or hunting knives are single edged. For example, the [ka-bar](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ka-Bar) and [bowie knife](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowie_knife) are single edged, though often with a sharpened clip point. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/without-any-explainable-lawful-purpose/503483.md?page=2)