# Witness haters--are you happy now? :( **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 2, 2013, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221 "2013-10-02T23:02:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/221 "2013-10-10T07:14:33Z")
I see how the issue of blood transfusions has been generalized into ‘refusing all medical treatment.’ Baloney. I have had medical treatment including eye surgery and never batted an eye (ironic choice of words, I suppose). The reasons Witnesses are not involved in social causes, and politics and such, is the one given by Jesus in Pilate’s interrogation: “My kingdom is no part of this world.” So they stay out of politics and social causes. Conversely, there is a rule in James: “…keep [oneself] without spot from the world.” I think the line in the Boy Scouts’ oath about “morally straight” is similar here. More exactly, it would be like treating the symptoms rather than the cause (cf. Acts 5:38, 39). DMC: “Only because I happen to be straight.” Thank you, Reggie Mantle. As for “Would you receive a Muslim…?” Yes, I would listen to his (summarized) statements, but that’s as far as it would go. I would say “I’m not interested” and end the encounter right then and there. The religious people who irk me are not Witnesses, but the fundamentalist evangelists (Baptists, I believe) who approach you and say “Jesus loves you” and won’t let you go unless they can convert you on the spot. If you refuse they’ll tell you that you are going to hell. I have always considered “We’re not interested” good enough for someone who didn’t want to listen to me (as did all the other Witnesses I know), but these hellfire evangelists are far worse than you make the Witnesses out to be. ---
**Author:** ![CLee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@CLee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CLee)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/222 "2013-10-10T13:10:47Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > I see how the issue of blood transfusions has been generalized into ‘refusing all medical treatment.’ Baloney. I have had medical treatment including eye surgery and never batted an eye (ironic choice of words, I suppose). No one generalized anything of the sort. If your child were injured and a transfusion could save her life, would you let her die? > [@dogie\_monty](#): > > The reasons Witnesses are not involved in social causes, and politics and such, is the one given by Jesus in Pilate’s interrogation: “My kingdom is no part of this world.” So they stay out of politics and social causes. Conversely, there is a rule in James: “…keep [oneself] without spot from the world.” I think the line in the Boy Scouts’ oath about “morally straight” is similar here. More exactly, it would be like treating the symptoms rather than the cause (cf. Acts 5:38, 39). That’s fine, so long as Witnesses don’t call the police when a crime has been committed, or the fire department, or use any social of social funding such as social security, food stamps or public assistance we thank politicians for. And so long as you don’t enter countries made politically stable by the presence of military in order to peddle your wares. Or take advantage of tax breaks, visit national parks, or in the event of a natural or manmade disaster you refuse intervention and rescue by the National Guard. Because clearly any use of civil servants or public assistance places you squarely in the grip of Satan. Or the dependence on civil servants and public assistance makes Witnesses wholesale refusal to participate in look like selfish users. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/223 "2013-10-10T13:58:53Z")
> [@CLee](#): > > No one generalized anything of the sort. If your child were injured and a transfusion could save her life, would you let her die? > That’s fine, so long as Witnesses don’t call the police when a crime has been committed, or the fire department, or use any social of social funding such as social security, food stamps or public assistance we thank politicians for. And so long as you don’t enter countries made politically stable by the presence of military in order to peddle your wares. Or take advantage of tax breaks, visit national parks, or in the event of a natural or manmade disaster you refuse intervention and rescue by the National Guard. Because clearly any use of civil servants or public assistance places you squarely in the grip of Satan. Or the dependence on civil servants and public assistance makes Witnesses wholesale refusal to participate in look like selfish users. What if they [aligned themselves with the UN (the wild beat of revelation) as an NGO](http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/united-nations-association.php) … would that be right out? ---
**Author:** ![CLee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@CLee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CLee)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/224 "2013-10-10T14:05:40Z")
> [@simster](#): > > What if they [aligned themselves with the UN (the wild beat of revelation) as an NGO](http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/united-nations-association.php) … would that be right out? No, that seems about right. Utilizing any service that protects their safety and ability to annoy others while refusing to help or participate in those services in any way. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/225 "2013-10-10T14:11:13Z")
> [@CLee](#): > > No, that seems about right. Utilizing any service that protects their safety and ability to annoy others while refusing to help or participate in those services in any way. No - thats the point - or maybe I misread you - they have for years called any org that worked with the UN ‘tools of satan’ - they then aligned with them as well. They lied about it for years until they could no longer deny it - then they cut ties. They even tell the membership that joining the Y is ‘joining satan’ and a apostasy against the organization. ---
**Author:** ![CLee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@CLee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CLee)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/226 "2013-10-10T14:19:40Z")
> [@simster](#): > > They even tell the membership that joining the Y is ‘joining satan’ and a apostasy against the organization. Re this quote from your link: “The dishonest information the Watchtower has released in attempting to explain the situation to its members” What were they telling the members? > [@simster](#): > > They even tell the membership that joining the Y is ‘joining satan’ and a apostasy against the organization. Well of course, they might learn something there. Just realized I’ve never seen a Watchtower at the library. Coincidence? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/227 "2013-10-10T14:25:38Z")
> [@CLee](#): > > Re this quote from your link: “The dishonest information the Watchtower has released in attempting to explain the situation to its members” > > What were they telling the members? That they needed the membership to get a ‘library card’, which was untrue (membership was not required to get a ‘library card’) - among other things - this is covered in the article under the “Dubious Justification” heading. ---
**Author:** ![CLee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@CLee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CLee)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/228 "2013-10-10T15:00:36Z")
> [@simster](#): > > That they needed the membership to get a ‘library card’, which was untrue (membership was not required to get a ‘library card’) - among other things - this is covered in the article under the “Dubious Justification” heading. Any Christian attempting to make sense of anything in Revelations deserves whatever foolishness arises from it. The UN kerfuffle pales in comparison to the serious social injustices Witnesses are guilty of, but it is one more glaring inconsistency proving the leadership untrustworthy. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/229 "2013-10-10T15:04:17Z")
> [@CLee](#): > > Any Christian attempting to make sense of anything in Revelations deserves whatever foolishness arises from it. The UN kerfuffle pales in comparison to the serious social injustices Witnesses are guilty of, but it is one more glaring inconsistency proving the leadership untrustworthy. exactly - if joining the Y is amounting to ‘apostasy’ and grounds for ‘disfellowshipping’ by a member (to get access to the pool) - whats it say that the leadership had to align with the “beast” to get a library card - and then had to lie about it as well. ---
**Author:** ![CLee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@CLee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CLee)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/230 "2013-10-10T15:07:51Z")
> [@simster](#): > > exactly - if joining the Y is amounting to ‘apostasy’ and grounds for ‘disfellowshipping’ by a member (to get access to the pool) - whats it say that the leadership had to align with the “beast” to get a library card - and then had to lie about it as well. I’m more surprised that anyone in the organization would need access to any reading material not elder approved and published. Shouldn’t they be more embarrassed by learning about the world outside the sect than aligning with the beast? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/231 "2013-10-10T15:09:47Z")
> [@CLee](#): > > I’m more surprised that anyone in the organization would need access to any reading material not elder approved and published. Shouldn’t they be more embarrassed by learning about the world outside the sect than aligning with the beast? well, its not the ‘membership’ that needed access to the library - its the leadership (ostensibly) - had it not been for the reports to the media - the membership would never have known about this. If you undertand the history of the Watchtower’s position on the UN - and any other ‘religious’ organization that had ties to it - the hypocrisy is what is glaring in this case - let alone the attempted coverup and lies. For an organization that calls itself “the truth” … ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/232 "2013-10-10T16:00:01Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > The reasons Witnesses are not involved in social causes, and politics and such, is the one given by Jesus in Pilate’s interrogation: “My kingdom is no part of this world.” So they stay out of politics and social causes. Conversely, there is a rule in James: “…keep [oneself] without spot from the world.” I find it funny that you won’t interact with the world in order to do good, but you’ll interact with the world in order to be a stupid pest. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/233 "2013-10-10T16:29:58Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I find it funny that you won’t interact with the world in order to do good, but you’ll interact with the world in order to be a stupid pest. Which is the exact opposite of what Christ himself did - he interacted with the world, fed the poor, healed the sick - and as a rule, didn’t spend all his time knocking on doors spreading the ‘hey, i’m here’ message. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/234 "2013-10-10T16:32:15Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Which is the exact opposite of what Christ himself did - he interacted with the world, fed the poor, healed the sick - and as a rule, didn’t spend all his time knocking on doors spreading the ‘hey, i’m here’ message. I guess served as an object lesson of how not to live your life… ---
**Author:** ![CLee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@CLee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CLee)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/235 "2013-10-10T16:45:40Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I find it funny that you won’t interact with the world in order to do good, but you’ll interact with the world in order to be a stupid pest. And to take whatever is useful and convenient to them including aid from civil servants while at the same time criticizing the work they do. Who did the Witnesses call when they call when they were shot at? Guess, go ahead and guess. Will accepting help from Satan’s officers and Satan’s court system which charged and will prosecute and punish the shooter cause them to lose a bit of sleep? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/236 "2013-10-10T16:48:32Z")
Hey, dougie, you opened this thread expecting us to care that JWs were shot at/near/toward. Why do _you_ care? Would you care if someone shot at one of _us_, or is that “of the world”? Would you take any action to protect us, or is that treating the symptom? In short, are you being a flaming hypocrite in expecting us to do something you wouldn’t bother to do yourself–caring about what happens to people in the physical world? ---
**Author:** ![CLee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@CLee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CLee)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/237 "2013-10-10T16:57:40Z")
We already know that he wouldn’t work for the police department called when the JWs were shot at, attend college to become a prosecutor, or serve on the jury to convict the shooter, but he will shamelessly take full advantage of those services. You betcha. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/238 "2013-10-11T07:57:43Z")
You are not quite correct. I have been on a jury, in a criminal case, and we did return a verdict. (When I was considered for a jury the next time around, that was all I was required to say.)\* I have been a material witness a few times in civil issues, including reporting a car (not my own) stolen. More recently, an issue has arisen concerning Nancy, the granddaughter of Maureen (whom I have mentioned in many other threads). Nancy, mother of two small girls, apparently wants transportation: her boyfriend/husband damaged the apartment building where they live and was jailed; now she wants to bail him out. I agreed not to assist Nancy in her outrageous notion. I must also note that, particularly in the Pauline letters, Christians are exhorted to be law-abiding; the only conflict is between man’s law and God’s law, as stated at Acts 5:29, like it or not. \*My doctor, to whom I showed the last jury summons mailed to me, recommended I be excused from jury service “for 99 months.” By that time I will be past 70 and have more latitude in the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/239 "2013-10-11T16:13:41Z")
Just for the record, 141 (+ 5) Jehovah’s Witnesses cannot do: 1.Belong to another organization or club for the purpose of socializing with nonbelievers. 2.Have best friends and activity buddies who are not Jehovah’s Witnesses. 3.Associate with people outside their organization when it is not necessary. 4.Attend social functions sponsored by their employer unless attendance is required 5.Associate with coworkers after business hours in a social settings 6.Disagree with their organization’s rules and code of conduct. 7.Disagree with their organization’s doctrines. 8.Contribute to the Presidential Campaign Fund on their tax return 9.Join the armed forces and defend their country 10.Say the Pledge of Allegiance 11.Salute the flag 12.Vote 13.Run for leadership in their organization. (JW’s are ‘appointed’ and invited to be leaders.) 14.Run for leadership in any organization 15.Take a stand for any political issue inside their organization 16.Take a stand on any political or ‘worldly’ issue outside of their organization 17.Campaign for a political candidate 18.Hold political office 19.Discuss politics 20.Be a union steward or shop steward 21.Actively be involved in a union strike 22.Use a gun for protection against humans 23.Become a police officer if a gun is required 24.Wear military uniforms or clothing associated with war 25.Take yoga classes and practice the discipline of yoga. 26.Smoke tobacco and cigars 27.Work full time selling tobacco and cigars 28.Attend Alcoholics Anonymous 29.Donate blood 30.Have blood transfusions 31.Read books, magazines, publications, and literature from other religions. 32.Buy anything from a church store 33.Buy something at a church garage sale 34.Donate items to a church run store 35.Shop at the Salvation Army 36.Work for the Salvation Army 37.Work for another church 38.Play competitive sports on a school team 39.Play competitive sports professionally 40.Run for class president 41.Become a cheerleader 42.Go to the school prom or school dance. 43.Attend class reunions 44.Be hypnotized 45.Accept Jesus as their mediator 46.Join the Boy Scouts 47.Join the Girl Guides 48.Join the YMCA 49.Serve on jury duty 50.Study psychology, philosophy, sociology, and viewpoints that might shake their faith 51.Attend other Christian churches 52.Attend nondenominational churches 53.Attend non Christian churches 54.Get married in another church 55.Dating non believers is discouraged 56.Casual dating is discouraged 57.Dating someone without the intent of getting married 58.Having sex before marriage 59.Breaking an engagement, separation, and ‘unscriptural’ divorce may result in disciplinary action 60.Marriage to non believers is not recommended 61.Be gay or lesbian. Homosexuality is not acceptable. 62.Throw rice at a wedding 63.Get divorced unless the reason is adultery 64.Can’t remarry unless their ex commits fornication first 65.Toast drinks 66.Buy a raffle ticket 67.Play bingo 68.Gamble 69.Sing any holiday songs 70.Sing the National Anthem. 71.Celebrate Christmas 72.Celebrate New Years Eve 73.Celebrate Easter 74.Celebrate Mother’s Day 75.Celebrate Father’s Day 76.Celebrate birthdays 77.Celebrate Thanksgiving 78.Celebrate Flag Day 79.Celebrate Veteran’s Day 80.Celebrate Independence Day 81.Celebrate Saint Patrick’s Day 82.Celebrate Valentine’s Day 83.Celebrate Halloween 84.Celebrate Hanukkah 85.Accept holiday gifts 86.Celebrate any holiday except the death of Jesus 87.Partake in the bread and wine that represents Christ unless they are part of the 144,000 88.Make holiday artwork for school 89.Engage in holiday parties at school 90.Take on a leadership role in school 91.Porneia 92.Do suggestive and immodest dancing in a public place 93.Attend a class, workshop, or seminar, sponsored by another church 94.Attend social events or fund raisers sponsored by another church 95.Use of bad language (curse words) is discouraged 96.Wear blue jeans, shorts, and overly casual clothing at the Kingdom Hall. See Dress Code 97.Wear pants at a Kingdom Hall if you’re a woman 98.Wear revealing clothes or skirts that are too short (looked down upon) 99.Wear long hair or facial hair if you’re a man (depends on the local customs of the country you live in) 100.Body piercing are discouraged 101.Tattoos are discouraged 102.State or imply that the Watchtower is not run by Jehovah God. 103.Have discussions and express Bible based viewpoints that contradict the organization’s beliefs 104.Say anything negative about their organization. JW’s must ‘speak in agreement’ and be ‘like-minded’. 105.Consider other religious beliefs as valid and truthful. 106.Acknowledge any prayer spoken by a non believer as valid 107.Take another Jehovah’s Witness to court (with exceptions) 108.Wear or own a cross 109.Own any religious picture 110.Own any religious statue 111.Engage in idolatry 112.Believe in miracles (except those found in the Bible) 113.Believe in ghosts 114.Witchcraft 115.Black magic 116.White magic 117.Consult with a psychic or become one 118.Study tarot cards, get a reading or give a reading 119.Study numerology or get a reading 120.Dabble in ESP (extrasensory perception), dowsing, or divination 121.Use a tool such as a pendulum to access information from the spiritual realm 122.Attempt to communicate with departed spirits. 123.Attend a seance 124.Believe in good luck or say things such as ‘Good luck to you’. Why? 125.Believe or say anything superstitious 126.Prophesy 127.Speaking in tongues 128.Laying on of hands 129.Energy healing such as Reiki 130.Read their horoscope 131.Study astrology or zodiac signs 132.Combat training, boxing, or martial arts 133.Go to heaven unless they are part of the 144,000 134.Worship Jesus as God 135.Idolize any celebrity or love and admire them to excess 136.Women can’t be elders 137.Women can’t be ministerial servants (assistants to the elders) 138.Divulge secret information to enemies and those not entitled to know. 139.Greet or talk with disfellowshipped persons (with some exceptions) 140.Associate with disfellowshipped persons except for immediate family living in the same house 141.Keep secrets from the organization. Jehovah’s Witnesses report friends and family members breaking the rules Five More Things Jehovah’s Witnesses Can’t Do. 1.Women cannot assume the role of a male and instruct the congregation. 2.A woman should not pray in the presence of a baptized male JW. 3.Jehovah’s Witnesses can’t be part of this world. They must be separate from the world 4.They can’t believe anything former Jehovah’s Witnesses say, – even if it’s factual. 5.Unless they’re an Elder, Jehovah’s Witnesses can’t read this book, – ‘Shepherd the Flock of God’ ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/240 "2013-10-11T16:43:44Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Just for the record, 141 (+ 5) Jehovah’s Witnesses cannot do: > 64.Can’t remarry unless their ex commits fornication first How would you know?! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221.md?page=13)