# Witness haters--are you happy now? :( **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 2, 2013, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221 "2013-10-02T23:02:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/241 "2013-10-11T16:44:59Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > How would you know?! Maybe because you can’t move out of the house either? Just a guess … ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/242 "2013-10-11T16:50:14Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > How would you know?! well, strictly speaking, the only allowed reason for divorce is adultry - so the fact that the divorce is allowed/accepted would be evidence that the other has already been fornicatin’. I assume this particular ‘rule’ is only in the case where there might be some other reason for the divorce ( aka - the ‘other’ was a non-believer and did it to get away) - at some point, this rule will get ‘glossed’ over or they will just assume that the other party has been fornicatin’. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/243 "2013-10-11T16:53:34Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Just for the record, 141 (+ 5) Jehovah’s Witnesses cannot do: … 26.Smoke tobacco and cigars…’ Glad to see pot’s not on the list! ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/244 "2013-10-11T17:00:18Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Just for the record, 141 (+ 5) Jehovah’s Witnesses cannot do: > > 5.Unless they’re an Elder, Jehovah’s Witnesses can’t read this book, – ‘Shepherd the Flock of God’ Many of those ‘rules’ the organization has broken on its own - but for this last one - I have a copy. I’ve read it - and no - I am not now, nor have I ever been, a JW - much less an elder. But you are correct - it is not a book that most of the ‘flock’ are even aware of. The current version is entitled “Pay attention to yourselves and all the flock” > [@](#): > > A copy of this textbook is issued to each appointed elder, > and he may retain it as long as he continues to serve as an > elder in any congregation . At such time as he should cease > to serve in that capacity, his copy of the book must be > handed over to the Congregation Service Committee, > since this publication is congregation property . No copies > are to be made of any part of this publication . I also have an older copy of the “Branch Organization” book - it contains the writing guide and other details - its admittedly probably a little out of date at this point. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/245 "2013-10-11T17:07:32Z")
Darnit - I got that backwards - the previous version was “Pay attention…” - the current version is “shepard the flock of god” From the “Letter” that accompanies the book - > [@](#): > > We would like to emphasize the importance of keeping these new textbooks secured and confidential, both before and after they are distributed. The textbooks should not be left on tops of desks or in other places where they are easily accessible by family members or other individuals. **The information is designed for use by the elders only, and other individuals should not have any opportunity to read the information**. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/246 "2013-10-12T06:39:51Z")
To Annie-Xmas: I would be very interested to know where you got that list. I have served on a jury ONCE, and intended to do so to improve my skills in the legal profession. As I noted, it’s not too likely I ever will again. My experience with the Salvation Army is rather anecdotal and unpleasant: My brother and sister and I had been attending their Sunday school when I was about 10, and our family had hit the skids financially; the church promised us food and other things around Christmas in 1959. They never came through. To return to my first point in this post, I have noticed one thing in common with the replies I get (the negative ones): invective. For some reason, Dopers who criticize me don’t do so unless they can in the most boorish, ill-mannered fashion. _ **I** _ cannot claim to be perfect in this regard, but I don’t use a hateful or scornful tone as a criterion. When people reply to me thus, it impresses me as NOT objective. (I had a teacher who, writing a critique of my compositions, said: “Document what you say, or it becomes invective only, and loses effect.”) (Underlining hers.) ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/247 "2013-10-12T08:10:57Z")
I have been on this message board for nearly 10 years and I cannot remember a Pit thread blowing up in the face of an OP as much as this one has. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/248 "2013-10-12T10:29:00Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Many of those ‘rules’ the organization has broken on its own - but for this last one - > > I have a copy. I’ve read it - and no - I am not now, nor have I ever been, a JW - much less an elder. But you are correct - it is not a book that most of the ‘flock’ are even aware of. > > The current version is entitled “Pay attention to yourselves and all the flock” > > I also have an older copy of the “Branch Organization” book - it contains the writing guide and other details - its admittedly probably a little out of date at this point. Just curious. How did you swing that one? It doesn’t seem like the kind of thing you can get on Amazon. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/249 "2013-10-12T10:36:19Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Many of those ‘rules’ the organization has broken on its own - but for this last one - > > I have a copy. I’ve read it - and no - I am not now, nor have I ever been, a JW - much less an elder. But you are correct - it is not a book that most of the ‘flock’ are even aware of. > > The current version is entitled “Pay attention to yourselves and all the flock” > > I also have an older copy of the “Branch Organization” book - it contains the writing guide and other details - its admittedly probably a little out of date at this point. Just curious. How did you swing that one? It doesn’t seem like the kind of thing you can get on Amazon. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/250 "2013-10-12T10:51:24Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > The story as I’ve heard it (and I’m feeling lazy and not going to find a cite) is that Emma (Joseph Smith’s primary wife) got sick of mopping up tobacco and vomit every time Joseph and the elders got together to discuss church business. So she suggested that maybe he should receive a revelation banning alcohol and tobacco. One of the Elders (David Whitmer, maybe?) retorted that maybe the ladies should be prohibited from drinking coffee and tea too. Shortly after, the revelation came as a Word of Wisdom[sup]TM[/sup] that discouraged those items [ETA: tobacco, strong drinks, and\* hot drinks\*] and also copied a few of Graham’s (yes, the cracker guy) diet ideas. Over time, the “not by commandment” became a commandment and the status of caffeine, iced tea, and hot chocolate has been murky. Yup. Here’s a cite: > [@](#): > > The situation that arose to evoke the revelation started with a combination of the efforts of the Kirtland Temperance Society (founded in 1830 and predominantly non Mormon), who were opposed to alcohol, tobacco and eating too much meat; and Smith training men in his ‘School of Elders’ every day, meeting in a small smoke filled room above Emma’s kitchen, with tobacco juice being spit all over the floor. Emma had the job of cleaning up following the meetings. The situation and results are available from several sources. This is just one: > > Thus Emma, faced almost daily with “having to clean so filthy a floor” as was left by the men chewing tobacco, spoke to Joseph about the matter. Davis Whitmer’s account supports Brigham Young’s description. “Some of the men were excessive chewers of the filthy weed, and their disgusting slobbering and spitting caused Mrs. Smith … to make the ironical remark that ‘It would be a good thing if a revelation could be had declaring the use of tobacco a sin, and commanding it’s suppression.’ The matter was taken up and joked about, one of the brethren suggested that the revelation should also provide for a total abstinence from tea and coffee drinking, intending this as a counter ‘dig’ at the sisters.” Sure enough the subject was afterward taken up in dead earnest, and the ‘Word of Wisdom’ was the result. (David Whitmer). ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/251 "2013-10-12T12:03:08Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Just curious. How did you swing that one? It doesn’t seem like the kind of thing you can get on Amazon. WHile I was researching the JW history and beliefs about a decade ago - I found a nice network of other people doing the same thing (some X, some family members of members, etc) . One of them got it and made it available. It was produced in PDF format (not a physical book) so it is fairly easy to ‘share’ if needed. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/252 "2013-10-12T12:19:04Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > **To Annie-Xmas: I would be very interested to know where you got that list.** > I have served on a jury ONCE, and intended to do so to improve my skills in the legal profession. As I noted, it’s not too likely I ever will again. > My experience with the Salvation Army is rather anecdotal and unpleasant: My brother and sister and I had been attending their Sunday school when I was about 10, and our family had hit the skids financially; the church promised us food and other things around Christmas in 1959. They never came through. > To return to my first point in this post, I have noticed one thing in common with the replies I get (the negative ones): invective. For some reason, Dopers who criticize me don’t do so unless they can in the most boorish, ill-mannered fashion. _ **I** _ cannot claim to be perfect in this regard, but I don’t use a hateful or scornful tone as a criterion. When people reply to me thus, it impresses me as NOT objective. (I had a teacher who, writing a critique of my compositions, said: “Document what you say, or it becomes invective only, and loses effect.”) > (Underlining hers.) \ - what difference does it make? is it accurate or not? ---
**Author:** ![Ace309](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ace309/32/1050_2.png) [@Ace309](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ace309)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/253 "2013-10-12T12:20:13Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I have been on this message board for nearly 10 years and I cannot remember a Pit thread blowing up in the face of an OP as much as this one has. Eh. Truth be told, there were a couple of posts that were surprising in their tone to me, and **dougie** isn’t melting down any more than usual. He’s always been a bit of an odd bird - there was a thread a few years ago about how a Venture Brothers spoof of Scooby-Doo was immoral or some such. For it to blow up in his face, I’d expect a much bigger kicking and screaming reaction. This thread mostly just never launched. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/254 "2013-10-12T12:46:51Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I have been on this message board for nearly 10 years and I cannot remember a Pit thread blowing up in the face of an OP as much as this one has. You missed the time BigT pitted his mom and the grocer for giving him the wrong cheese? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/255 "2013-10-12T12:47:51Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > You missed the time BigT pitted his mom and the grocer for giving him the wrong cheese? That’s a good one. There have some memorable ones over the years. ---
**Author:** ![CLee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@CLee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CLee)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/256 "2013-10-12T13:49:09Z")
> [@simster](#): > > WHile I was researching the JW history and beliefs about a decade ago - I found a nice network of other people doing the same thing (some X, some family members of members, etc) . One of them got it and made it available. It was produced in PDF format (not a physical book) so it is fairly easy to ‘share’ if needed. The ex JW networks online are heartbreaking. If it weren’t for people like you who bothered to provide research and cites, it would be hard to believe the insanity this sect practices. It’s hard to read through discussions and pleas for help from recently disfellowshipped JWs without tearing up. Someone posted a copy of a 1994 Watchtower dedicated to kids who died due to refusing transfusions. The cover is plastered with their photos. Dead kids, proudly displayed. [Jehovah's Witness magazine proudly showing the faces of children who died by refusing a blood transfusion (pic) - Imgur](http://i.imgur.com/ag9Y0Mx.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/257 "2013-10-12T14:04:50Z")
> [@CLee](#): > > The ex JW networks online are heartbreaking. If it weren’t for people like you who bothered to provide research and cites, it would be hard to believe the insanity this sect practices. It’s hard to read through discussions and pleas for help from recently disfellowshipped JWs without tearing up. Someone posted a copy of a 1994 Watchtower dedicated to kids who died due to refusing transfusions. The cover is plastered with their photos. Dead kids, proudly displayed. [Jehovah's Witness magazine proudly showing the faces of children who died by refusing a blood transfusion (pic) - Imgur](http://i.imgur.com/ag9Y0Mx.jpg) That’s horrid. Sick. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/258 "2013-10-12T14:35:49Z")
> [@CLee](#): > > The ex JW networks online are heartbreaking. If it weren’t for people like you who bothered to provide research and cites, it would be hard to believe the insanity this sect practices. It’s hard to read through discussions and pleas for help from recently disfellowshipped JWs without tearing up. Someone posted a copy of a 1994 Watchtower dedicated to kids who died due to refusing transfusions. The cover is plastered with their photos. Dead kids, proudly displayed. [Jehovah's Witness magazine proudly showing the faces of children who died by refusing a blood transfusion (pic) - Imgur](http://i.imgur.com/ag9Y0Mx.jpg) and its a perfect example of thier cult like control - On one hand - they’ll tell you “its up to the individuals concience” on these matters - then they’ll plaster the magazines with stories of “strong kids giving up thier lives in service by refusing - ‘don’t you want to be like them’ ?”… they will further the ‘evils’ of blood transfusions with tidbits about ‘contaminated blood’ and ‘how its a big business’ and reported stories of how ‘x survived without it’ - all which are half truths or poorly researched, but since the WT has demonized all sources of information BUT the WT - especially when it disagrees with the WT - From the elders manual - > [@](#): > > **Willingly and unrepentantly taking blood.** > If someone willingly takes blood, perhaps because > of being under extreme pressure, the committee > should obtain the facts and determine > the individual’s attitude. If he is repentant} the > committee would provide spiritual assistance in > the spirit of Galatians 6: 1 and Jude 22, 23. Since > he is spiritually weak, he would not qualify for > special privileges for a period of time, and it may > be necessary to remove certain basic privileges. > Depending on the circumstances, the committee > may also need to arrange for an announcement > to the congregation: “'The elders have > handled a matter having to do with [name > of person]. You will be glad to know that > spiritual shepherds are endeavoring to render > assistance.” On the other hand, if the elders > on the committee determine that he is > unrepentant, they should announce his disassociation. They consider ‘any’ taking of blood as being ‘willing’ - even if done against the persons will (as by court order) - thats the “extreme pressure”. The “Committee” referred to here is the “judicial committee” - meaning that this is a disfellowshipping offense. This shows how much the “individual’s conscience” is allowed to play a role in it - re: disfellowshipping vs disassociationis a distinction with out a real difference - they just place the blame differently - > [@](#): > > 1. Whereas disfellowshipping is an action taken > by a judicial committee against an unrepentant > wrongdoer, disassociation is an action taken by an individual > who no longer desires to be one of Jehovah’s > Witnesses. (1 John 2:19) The body of elders should > appoint a committee of three elders to consider the > facts. Note that in the cases of disassociation - it is still the elders in most cases that make this decision . ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/259 "2013-10-12T17:06:13Z")
> [@CLee](#): > > The ex JW networks online are heartbreaking. If it weren’t for people like you who bothered to provide research and cites, it would be hard to believe the insanity this sect practices. It’s hard to read through discussions and pleas for help from recently disfellowshipped JWs without tearing up. Someone posted a copy of a 1994 Watchtower dedicated to kids who died due to refusing transfusions. The cover is plastered with their photos. Dead kids, proudly displayed. [Jehovah's Witness magazine proudly showing the faces of children who died by refusing a blood transfusion (pic) - Imgur](http://i.imgur.com/ag9Y0Mx.jpg) **CLee** , forgive me, but attention to detail has never been my strongest personal characteristic, and if you’ve covered this elsewhere I’ve missed it. Anyway, you come off as pretty well-informed about this issue. Are you yourself a disfellowshipped or apostate JW, or do you have a personal relationship with someone who is? ---
**Author:** ![CLee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@CLee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CLee)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/260 "2013-10-12T17:27:29Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > **CLee** , forgive me, but attention to detail has never been my strongest personal characteristic, and if you’ve covered this elsewhere I’ve missed it. > > Anyway, you come off as pretty well-informed about this issue. Are you yourself a disfellowshipped JW? No, but my dearest friend dated a brilliant but lost ex JW for years. He was a fixture in my life for a long time, a very smart guy. It took years to work through the brainwashing and it was a mighty struggle for him. Several members of his church left and shared his home and I was fortunate to befriend all of them, too. The stories he and his roomates told me were just tragic. I did a lot of reading and poking around to help him connect with others in his position, he really had no idea of the volume of ex-JWs out there. They really are terrified of being accused of apostasy (sp?) and rarely stray from approved reading. Research like **Simster** has provided were the only useful tools to help undo the years of abuse and intimidation. You would think you could just hand wave much of that nonsense away and say “No, that’s ridiculous, you can’t possibly believe that’s true” but it isn’t that easy. It took years of programming to get the Witnesses in lock-step, and it takes years to deprogram the fear and shame. Last I heard his own parents still turn away from him at the store, and his ex wife turned their two children away from him. I don’t know how he manages to live in the same town with such people and he was bitter for a long time. But today he’s happily married and deeply involved in a Baptist church of some flavor with two step teenagers and a toddler of his own, runs a business. Sales, of course, and he’s good at it. His smiling face and family are on billboards around here and I’m happy to see him successful and at peace. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221.md?page=14)