# Witness haters--are you happy now? :( **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 2, 2013, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221 "2013-10-02T23:02:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/281 "2013-10-15T01:27:27Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Well, Annie-Xmas’s article was not the most objective & skewed the phrasing to make it sound like that. That is not how any JW would phrase it. If they even thought about it, they’d say you “can’t” as in you were “not able”, not as in you “may not”. Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![Battle\_Pope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Battle\_Pope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Battle_Pope)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/282 "2013-10-15T01:57:34Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > OK, I wish people would get this straight when they report it. > > JW’s believe the 144,000 Heavenly Court are the Upper Management of Jehovah’s Kingdom, running things with Jesus. The rest of Redeemed Humanity live forever on Paradise Earth. The incorrigibly unrepentant are destroyed (not eternally tormented) > in the Lake of Fire. [Kirk] What does God need with a bureaucracy?[/Kirk] ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/283 "2013-10-15T02:04:14Z")
> [@Battle\_Pope](#): > > [Kirk] What does God need with a bureaucracy?[/Kirk] Idle hands and all that. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/284 "2013-10-15T02:55:07Z")
> [@CLee](#): > > You would think you could just hand wave much of that nonsense away and say “No, that’s ridiculous, you can’t possibly believe that’s true” but it isn’t that easy. It took years of programming to get the Witnesses in lock-step, and it takes years to deprogram the fear and shame. Very well put. This is exactly what happens to ex-Mormons as well. It’s very similar in that both require members to blindly accept whatever the leaders say at that moment, suspending doubts just like it’s out of _1984_. It’s that your whole world so it’s hard for outsiders to comprehend. It would be like finding out that you are in Truman’s world. Some examples I can think of would include what I picture how the children of the “disappeared” in Argentina who were adopted into military families would feel when they found out that the people they thought were their birth parents were really the killers of them. > [@](#): > > Last I heard his own parents still turn away from him at the store, and his ex wife turned their two children away from him. I don’t know how he manages to live in the same town with such people and he was bitter for a long time. But today he’s happily married and deeply involved in a Baptist church of some flavor with two step teenagers and a toddler of his own, runs a business. That’s really good that he found some happiness. Getting shunned by Mormons is pretty common, with a lot of people getting divorced by their spouses after quitting. Many bishops (the Mormon lay leader equivalent of a parish priest) go so far as to recommend this to people to keep them from the “danger” of associating with former members, even their wives and husbands. The JW practice of shunning is outright evil. I’ve got a friend, a former JW who was an alcoholic and rather than provide any sort of support or help, simply acted as if my friend were the lowest of the lowest of sinners. He could attend meetings but no one could talk to him nor could he talk to them. WTF? There is enough science to understand more how addiction works and while nothing is absolute, treating alcoholics by shaming them belongs in the 16th century. Evil. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/285 "2013-10-15T02:57:35Z")
> [@Battle\_Pope](#): > > [Kirk] What does God need with a bureaucracy?[/Kirk] The joke among Mormons is that theirs is the only heaven which requires an Org Chart to understand their relationship with God. ---
**Author:** ![CLee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@CLee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CLee)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/286 "2013-10-15T15:00:06Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > The JW practice of shunning is outright evil. I’ve got a friend, a former JW who was an alcoholic and rather than provide any sort of support or help, simply acted as if my friend were the lowest of the lowest of sinners. He could attend meetings but no one could talk to him nor could he talk to them. > > WTF? There is enough science to understand more how addiction works and while nothing is absolute, treating alcoholics by shaming them belongs in the 16th century. > > Evil. Weird. My friend used to attend the meetings after he was disfellowshipped and we would ask why in the world he would return for that sort of abuse and he couldn’t give us an answer. I think all the ex JWs he helped escape did the same thing, actually. What would move anyone to go back and sit there in such a hostile environment? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/287 "2013-10-15T15:12:27Z")
> [@CLee](#): > > Weird. My friend used to attend the meetings after he was disfellowshipped and we would ask why in the world he would return for that sort of abuse and he couldn’t give us an answer. I think all the ex JWs he helped escape did the same thing, actually. What would move anyone to go back and sit there in such a hostile environment? Perhaps for the same reason many abused spouses go back, because on some level they feel they deserve that treatment. ---
**Author:** ![CLee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@CLee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CLee)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/288 "2013-10-15T17:46:53Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Perhaps for the same reason many abused spouses go back, because on some level they feel they deserve that treatment. That’s so disturbing. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/289 "2013-10-15T19:20:59Z")
> [@CLee](#): > > Weird. My friend used to attend the meetings after he was disfellowshipped and we would ask why in the world he would return for that sort of abuse and he couldn’t give us an answer. I think all the ex JWs he helped escape did the same thing, actually. What would move anyone to go back and sit there in such a hostile environment? To understand this you have to understand the cult mentality that is in use - Its engrained in the membership that a) everything the JW say is true b) everything else is evil - anything that is against the JW is especially evil c) if you’re not with the JW - you will die in a fiery death also - since they have been taught (very well) that they are to be ‘no part of the world’ - they don’t have many friends or associations outside of the KH - they almost literally have no where to turn for assistance - its even worse if their family is still part of the organization - as then they don’t even have that. The JW at its core is a ‘high control’ cult - 2 factors are key a) everything that is approved to read is from the organization and treated as ‘god given’ b) any transgression can get you disfellowshipped - questioning the teachings gets you disfellowshipped and labeled an apostate. With that in mind - its no wonder that **dougie\_monty** would not want to continue the discussion started above - he’s\* welcome to PM me privately (and it will be kept private) if he would like that information - if not, I’ll drop it unless asked for it otherwise. _that invitation goes to any JW lurkers that are interested_ ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/290 "2013-10-15T21:49:25Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > That’s a bit problematic, as it relies upon an assumption that your interlocutor accepts the Bible as authoritative. Really, was that so hard? If you had stated that at the outset a lot of this argument could have been obviated. If you had begun by stating that you don’t accept the Bible (or any religion) at all, or words to that effect, we could have avoided all of this; I know that convincing people who disbelieve in the Bible to believe otherwise is about as futile an endeavor as trying to push a cat out from under a porch with a wet rope. This should apply to door-to-door witnessing as well; if a disinterested householder just says “I don’t believe you” or “I’m not interested” or “I’m an atheist and I don’t want to argue” (I have heard all three) in the first place, I would be content to let it go at that, and move on. However, I will not assume that of _all_ householders, some Dopers’ ideal notwithstanding. P. S. I have waited a few days not to be standoffish, or anything like that. I like to think about some of these things for a while before I post; they come out better that way, I feel. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/291 "2013-10-15T22:10:27Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > P. S. I have waited a few days not to be standoffish, or anything like that. I like to think about some of these things for a while before I post; they come out better that way, I feel. And you still haven’t stated if you want **me** to continue or not in my conversation with **you** - re: Watchtower Organization and Propoganda Should I take that as a ‘no’ ? if so, may I ask “why?” ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/292 "2013-10-15T22:23:44Z")
Let me put it this way: When you begin your sentences (several of them) with “everything” as you did in your last post I hesitate to give serious consideration to what follows. ---
**Author:** ![CLee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@CLee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CLee)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/293 "2013-10-15T23:05:55Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Let me put it this way: When you begin your sentences (several of them) with “everything” as you did in your last post I hesitate to give serious consideration to what follows. Well, could you answer a question for me? I’ve read what you and other Witnesses have said about emerging technology that employs substitutes for blood, and I’ll agree that will be handy in impoverished areas. Also read testimonies about patients who survive after refusing transfusion. Aside from that, how can you justify declining to employ medical know-how technology that (God?) has granted us? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/294 "2013-10-15T23:51:19Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Let me put it this way: When you begin your sentences (several of them) with “everything” as you did in your last post I hesitate to give serious consideration to what follows. Man, I hear you. I’m that way about the word “antimony”. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/295 "2013-10-16T00:15:59Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > That’s a bit problematic, as it relies upon an assumption that your interlocutor accepts the Bible as authoritative. > [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Really, was that so hard? If you had stated that at the outset a lot of this argument could have been obviated. If you had begun by stating that you don’t accept the Bible (or any religion) at all, or words to that effect, we could have avoided all of this; Try as I may, there is absolutely no way for me to parse that retort as being directed to anyone except me personally. And so I feel I must respond: If **I** had stated it at the outset? If **I** had begun by stating something? **I** wasn’t even a part of this thread until page 4. **I** merely offered an observation about the “gem” you seem to think you found. This one, right here: > [@dougie\_monty](#): > > (A gem I found in my reading: “If you can’t demonstrate solely from the Bible that your [religion’s] doctines should be heeded, what basis do you have to convince anyone outside of your religion?”) It’s entirely up to you, but you might do well to question the Great Price of that “gem” when you choose to apply the principle to encounters in which you _haven’t_ yet established someone’s deference to Scripture. > [@dougie\_monty](#): > > \*\*I know that convincing people who disbelieve in the Bible to believe otherwise is about as futile an endeavor as trying to push a cat out from under a porch with a wet rope. > > This should apply to door-to-door witnessing as well; if a disinterested householder just says “I don’t believe you” or “I’m not interested” or “I’m an atheist and I don’t want to argue” (I have heard all three) in the first place, I would be content to let it go at that, and move on.\*\* However, I will not assume that of _all_ householders, some Dopers’ ideal notwithstanding. > > P. S. I have waited a few days not to be standoffish, or anything like that. I like to think about some of these things for a while before I post; they come out better that way, I feel. I’ll be candid: I think you’re a bit of a twit; OTOH, I personally view you as a mostly harmless and inoffensive twit. More to the point, you’re a Doper, so I’m going to do you the courtesy of giving you the benefit of the doubt that you sincerely mean the part I tagged for emphasis above. And thank you for that “should.” It suggests a recognition that it may not reflect the practices of every other door-to-door witnesser. Speaking from my own experience, I have always politely but firmly told JWs at my door that I would let them get to their next stop without wasting any of their time; I have never had one return. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/296 "2013-10-16T00:48:38Z")
> [@CLee](#): > > … emerging technology that employs substitutes for blood, and I’ll agree that will be handy in impoverished areas… Hey, at least they do _one_ useful thing for human society. There are almost 8 million ‘human guinea pigs’ for experiments to develop ‘blood substitute’ technology that will benefit the rest of us if (and, inevitably, when) the hospital runs out of our type, or a disaster results in a general shortage. And unlike Dr. Mengele’s ‘subjects’, _these_ are all (except for their kids, of course :() willing, and frequently _highly insistent_, _volunteers._ Hell, given the situation the OP originally bitched about, they’re _double_ volunteers who kill a second bird with their one stone, in that they also, by sticking their doctrinal dicks where they are _not_ wanted by the population, volunteer for 1) ‘wound studies involving getting involuntarily bled out by gun-shot or knife-wound, while refusing blood transfusions’ and 2) identifying and getting incarcerated our more nutty gun or knife wielders who should be taken off the streets and imprisoned, without risking anyone important (aka: Not a JW) by doing their best to piss off random people, many of whom may be the nutters we’d rather remove from the population. I’d call that a ‘Win-Win’ for ‘society-at-large’. ---
**Author:** ![CLee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@CLee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CLee)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/297 "2013-10-16T00:59:03Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > Hey, at least they do _one_ useful thing for human society. There are almost 8 million ‘human guinea pigs’ for experiments to develop ‘blood substitute’ technology that will benefit the rest of us if (and, inevitably, when) the hospital runs out of our type, or a disaster results in a general shortage. And unlike Dr. Mengele’s ‘subjects’, _these_ are all (except for their kids, of course :() willing, and frequently _highly insistent_, _volunteers._ > > Hell, given the situation the OP originally bitched about, they’re _double_ volunteers who kill a second bird with their one stone, in that they also, by sticking their doctrinal dicks where they are _not_ wanted by the population, volunteer for 1) ‘wound studies involving getting involuntarily bled out by gun-shot or knife-wound, while refusing blood transfusions’ and 2) identifying and getting incarcerated our more nutty gun or knife wielders who should be taken off the streets and imprisoned, without risking anyone important (aka: Not a JW) by doing their best to piss off random people, many of whom may be the nutters we’d rather remove from the population. > > I’d call that a ‘Win-Win’ for ‘society-at-large’. You referring to consenting adults or kids? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/298 "2013-10-16T01:03:52Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Let me put it this way: When you begin your sentences (several of them) with “everything” as you did in your last post I hesitate to give serious consideration to what follows. Lets be honest here - you have no intention of giving anything I post ‘serious consideration’ - looking for a word to dodge the conversation with is just that - a dodge - you haven’t (or cannot ) refute the substance of the post. Consider this statement by the Watchtower - [QUOTE=Watchtower 2001 August 1] **How to Make Your Advancement Manifest** 8 First, since “oneness” is to be observed, a mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding.\*\* Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and “the faithful and discreet slave.”\*\* [/QUOTE] **That** is the substance of the ‘everything’ when it comes to my earlier post. So - answer these questions - a) Who is the “faithful and discreet slave” in that statement? b) If something disagrees with that ‘truth’ - what must be its source? c) What happens to someone that questions or disagrees with the information from the ‘faithful and discreet slave’ ? d) If it is shown that the information published by ‘the faithful and discreet slave’ has lies and half-truths in them - what would that mean to you? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/299 "2013-10-16T01:31:42Z")
let me rephrase question (d) slightly - d) If it can be shown that information published by ‘the faithful and discreet slave’ has lies and half-truths contained in them - what would that mean to you? ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221/300 "2013-10-16T01:34:52Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Man, I hear you. I’m that way about the word “antimony”. I believe the word you were looking for was “antinomy”. I hear there’s a ‘mine’ for that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-haters-are-you-happy-now/670221.md?page=16)