# Witness tampering in Moussaoui case. What penalty for gov't lawyer?. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2006, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234 "2006-03-13T21:27:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/1 "2006-03-13T21:27:27Z")
’ Ms. Martin gave the witnesses transcripts of opening statements and of testimony last week by an F.B.I. agent, Michael Anticev.’ > **[Judge May Deny Death Penalty in Moussaoui Trial (Published 2006)](https://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/13/national/judge-may-deny-death-penalty-in-moussaoui-trial.html)** > > The disclosure that a government lawyer had improperly coached witnesses imperiled the prosecution's bid for an execution. Carla J. Martin, a government lawyer, appears to have engaged in egregious witness-tampering. At the least, she appears to have jeopardized the prosecution’s desired outcome of a death penalty for the accused. Moreover, she has engaged in conduct directly subversive of the fundamental premise of the adversary system for impartial finding of fact. By any reasonable standards, she should lose her license to practice law. Should she not, also, be subject to criminal sanction? Will she be? If not, what does it say about our committment to due process? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/2 "2006-03-13T22:01:35Z")
Yeesh. Considering how aggressive the government has been about pursuing allegations of wrongdoing on the [defense side of terrorism trials](http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18817), I’d say fairness requires them to be just as aggressive in going after prosecutorial misconduct. > [@](#): > > In his excellent article on the domestic “war on terror” [NYR, March 9], David Cole discusses the case of Lynne Stewart, the lawyer who may be imprisoned for life for releasing to the press a statement by her client, Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman, when Rahman was forbidden to communicate with the outside world. But Cole only mentions in passing Stewart’s “codefendants.” One of them is Mohammed Yousry, an American citizen of Egyptian origin, who works as a commercial translator while he pursues a Ph.D. in history at NYU. Yousry is not a practicing Muslim and is married to an evangelical Christian; their daughter graduated from a Baptist college. He was hired by Rahman’s lawyers (Stewart and Ramsey Clark) to translate documents for the defense, which he thought might be interesting material for a dissertation. He has, as even the prosecution admitted, absolutely no ties to, or sympathy with, any fundamentalist or terrorist organizations. The FBI impounded his computer and notebooks and taped thousands of hours of his phone conversations over three years, producing nothing that was introduced as evidence at his trial. His only “crime” was translating Rahman’s statement, as he was asked to do; he took no part in its release to the press. Yousry has been convicted of providing “material support for terrorism,” and now faces twenty years in prison. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/3 "2006-03-13T22:19:16Z")
_twenty years in prison._ sounds about right to me… ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/4 "2006-03-13T22:35:12Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Yeesh. Considering how aggressive the government has been about pursuing allegations of wrongdoing on the [defense side of terrorism trials](http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18817), I’d say fairness requires them to be just as aggressive in going after prosecutorial misconduct. > > :eek: Given Lynn Stewarts actions, and the fact that she hired him, I think that the governement is right to have seriously looked into Yousry. Having done so, it seems that even though twenty years enters into the equation as a possibility, that based on the information provided that he deserves zero punishment. If Martin did, in fact, break the law, she deserves to be punished. But her misdeeds are not in the ballpark of helping terrorism. Let her be charged and fined/disbarred/prosecuted/jailed, whatever is appropriate. In the reality of this particular phase of the trial, it shouldn’t effect the outcome, though. The guy confessed to three accounts (of six) that qualify him for the endless nap. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/5 "2006-03-13T22:39:27Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Given Lynn Stewarts actions, and the fact that she hired him, I think that the governement is right to have seriously looked into Yousry. Having done so, it seems that even though twenty years enters into the equation as a possibility, that based on the information provided that he deserves zero punishment. > > If Martin did, in fact, break the law, she deserves to be punished. But her misdeeds are not in the ballpark of helping terrorism. Let her be charged and fined/disbarred/prosecuted/jailed, whatever is appropriate. In the reality of this particular phase of the trial, it shouldn’t effect the outcome, though. The guy confessed to three accounts (of six) that qualify him for the endless nap. but, with respect, that’s precisely the question that is the subject of this phase of the trial in whcih, apparently, the prosecution had a finger on the scale. When that happens, we’re supposed to bend over backwards, not bend the defendant over forwards, as it were… ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/6 "2006-03-13T22:43:43Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > But her misdeeds are not in the ballpark of helping terrorism. Uh, how do you figure that perverting the course of justice so that the case against a dangerous terrorist is weakened and the sentence possibly reduced, as per the OP’s link, is anything **but** helping terrorism? There’s a reason that people in the criminal justice system are supposed to follow the rules, and it isn’t in order to be nice to the criminals. It’s so that we don’t have to confront a choice between permitting dangerous abuses of power on the one hand, and weakening our ability to punish dangerous criminals on the other. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/7 "2006-03-13T23:03:39Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Uh, how do you figure that perverting the course of justice so that the case against a dangerous terrorist is weakened and the sentence possibly reduced, as per the OP’s link, is anything **but** helping terrorism? > > There’s a reason that people in the criminal justice system are supposed to follow the rules, and it isn’t in order to be nice to the criminals. It’s so that we don’t have to confront a choice between permitting dangerous abuses of power on the one hand, and weakening our ability to punish dangerous criminals on the other. One is helping terrorism with the intent of helping it. The other helps it by accident of a dumb mistake. As I said, her misdeeds she be punished. But, in this case he confessed, so his conviction didn’t hang on what a witness might have said. Put the needle in his arm today and prosecute her tomorrow. My only law credentials are being a years-long fan of Law & Order, but as a rule, I do not think that a misdeed on the part of the prosecution, or police, should automatically equate to a boon for the defendant. I think that is a big mistake in our system of late. Fortunately, I think this has been noticed and the pendulum is about to start righting itself. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/8 "2006-03-14T00:39:29Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > … as a rule, I do not think that a misdeed on the part of the prosecution, or police, should automatically equate to a boon for the defendant. I think that is a big mistake in our system of late. Fortunately, I think this has been noticed and the pendulum is about to start righting itself. It would be extremely unfortunate if prosecutors and police could do anything they wanted without fear of repercussions. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/9 "2006-03-14T00:41:51Z")
[Motion to Dismiss](http://notablecases.vaed.uscourts.gov/1:01-cr-00455/docs/71839/0.pdf) (pdf) ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/10 "2006-03-14T00:45:46Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > It would be extremely unfortunate if prosecutors and police could do anything they wanted without fear of repercussions. I agree completely. And I’m not advocating that. I’m saying that the transgresssion should be punished, but not necessarily benefiting the defendant. This case is a good example. He is just as guilty as if this didn’t happen. He confessed. The lawyer should be punished in her own right. Fired, disbared, fined, jailed, whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/11 "2006-03-14T01:01:49Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I agree completely. And I’m not advocating that. I’m saying that the transgresssion should be punished, but not necessarily benefiting the defendant. This case is a good example. He is just as guilty as if this didn’t happen. He confessed. The lawyer should be punished in her own right. Fired, disbared, fined, jailed, whatever. But the lawyer’s transgression unfairly hurt the defendant’s ability to defend himself in the penalty phase of his trial. How does punishing the lawyer address that problem? The government should concede error and accept the removal of the death penalty from the table as an appropriate sanction. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/12 "2006-03-14T01:09:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But the lawyer’s transgression unfairly hurt the defendant’s ability to defend himself in the penalty phase of his trial. How does punishing the lawyer address that problem? > > The government should concede error and accept the removal of the death penalty from the table as an appropriate sanction. uh-oh…I think I see the PD peeking out…It’s an opportune moment to gather up the ergot and fly east for the intervention… ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/13 "2006-03-14T01:19:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But the lawyer’s transgression unfairly hurt the defendant’s ability to defend himself in the penalty phase of his trial. How does punishing the lawyer address that problem? > > The government should concede error and accept the removal of the death penalty from the table as an appropriate sanction. If it is likely (as per the judge) that the confession would have been had without the testimony of the tainted witness(es), then get the needle ready. If, on the other hand, the tainted testimony is believed (by the judge) to have been pivotal or instrumental in the confession being offered, I would have to agree with you. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/14 "2006-03-14T01:38:16Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > If it is likely (as per the judge) that the confession would have been had without the testimony of the tainted witness(es), then get the needle ready. If, on the other hand, the tainted testimony is believed (by the judge) to have been pivotal or instrumental in the confession being offered, I would have to agree with you. the confession is moot as to penalty. The tainted evidence was intended to go to culpability, not liability. Unaccustomed as I am to saying so, brother B. is correct. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/15 "2006-03-14T01:39:43Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > If Martin did, in fact, break the law, she deserves to be punished. But her misdeeds are not in the ballpark of helping terrorism. Her misdeeds might keep a terrorist alive when he could be dead. I can’t think of anything more “helpful” than that. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/16 "2006-03-14T01:56:07Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > the confession is moot as to penalty. > > The tainted evidence was intended to go to culpability, not liability. > > Unaccustomed as I am to saying so, brother B. is correct. So if the question of whether he is guilty or not is moot (the confession), isn’t it true that any other evidence is presented to just sway or nudge things one way or the other? If so, and if the judge is able to conclude that the other evidence—or the guilty verdict itself, could have lead to a death sentence, then I think my point stands. Maybe I’m missing something (very possible), but if I was on a jury and he confessed and the only question is should he be put to death or not, I don’t care if the prosecution equates him to Hitler or Jesus. If you’re guilty of a crime of terrorism, successful or not, “Nurse, needle please.” Legal question: how much discretion does the judge have in a case like this? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/17 "2006-03-14T01:59:28Z")
> [@Steve MB](#): > > Her misdeeds might keep a terrorist alive when he could be dead. I can’t think of anything more “helpful” than that. Really? You can’t think of anything worse than a terrorist being locked up for the rest of his life? Nothing? Nothing at all? If you reread my posts I think you’ll see that I was contrasting her actions with those of Lynn Stewart, who facilitated terrorist communications. That alone I think qualifies as worse. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/18 "2006-03-14T02:04:05Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > So if the question of whether he is guilty or not is moot (the confession), isn’t it true that any other evidence is presented to just sway or nudge things one way or the other? If so, and if the judge is able to conclude that the other evidence—or the guilty verdict itself, could have lead to a death sentence, then I think my point stands. Maybe I’m missing something (very possible), but if I was on a jury and he confessed and the only question is should he be put to death or not, I don’t care if the prosecution equates him to Hitler or Jesus. If you’re guilty of a crime of terrorism, successful or not, “Nurse, needle please.” > > Legal question: how much discretion does the judge have in a case like this? This is a **federal district court judge** Old joke: What is the difference between God and a Federal Judge? God only **thinks** she’s a federal judge… ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/19 "2006-03-14T02:33:03Z")
I will point out that the brain-dead attorney whose misconduct is being debated was an attorney for the Transportation Safety Administration, and not one of the federal prosecutors directly involved in the case. It was the US Attorney and the lead prosecutor who brought the misconduct to the judge’s attention, saying that her conduct was “reprehensible and we frankly cannot fathom why she engaged in such conduct.” If I had to make an educated guess, there was a pissing contest between the prosecutors on the case, who are attempting to argue that something could have been done to prevent 9/11 if Moussaoui hadn’t helped, and the TSA, who would look bad if that theory flew. This kind of crap is not unheard of, but, given the limited facts I have, I certainly would support firing the idiot, and a nice contempt sentence (if possible). ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/20 "2006-03-14T03:29:26Z")
**Bricker** wants to know why she should be punished _at all_??? See, some of us actually have a moral compass that includes respecting the words spoken by, oh, say people like Federal Judges. And we might just find it reprehensible for a member of the bar, any member, to directly and flagrantly violate the law, not to mention DIRECT INSTRUCTIONS FROM A JUDGE SITTING ON THE CASE. So. Why won’t she be disbarred? Why **shouldn’t** she be disbarred? I mean, along with the contempt charges and jail time. Or, are attorneys somehow magically exempt from obeying the very laws they’re supposed to uphold, just because their stationary reads “T.S.A.” across the top ? Removing the death penalty as an option does exactly nothing to sanction the woman who violated the direct instructions from the judge in the case. Nothing. At all. Cartooniverse [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234.md?page=2)