# Witness tampering in Moussaoui case. What penalty for gov't lawyer?. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2006, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234 "2006-03-13T21:27:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/81 "2006-03-18T00:50:35Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > [http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:DzkHlXEON-gJ:www.sconet.state.oh.us/rod/newpdf/8/2005/2005-ohio-28.pdf+polygraph+examination+"challenge+questions"&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=4&client=opera](http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:DzkHlXEON-gJ:www.sconet.state.oh.us/rod/newpdf/8/2005/2005-ohio-28.pdf+polygraph+examination+%22challenge+questions%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=4&client=opera) > > you will probably be astonished to learn that in Ohio, evidence from a court-ordered polygraph is admissible and deemed reliable. > > Another precinct heard from… Specious, **alaricthegoth** , specious. As anyone who cares to read the link (and [here](http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/rod/newpdf/8/2005/2005-ohio-28.pdf) is one that actually works) can tell, the polygraph was ordered by the court post-conviction for sentencing purposes, is only addressed in passing, and was not the subject of any part of the appeal. Though I agree that that is wrong and should not have happened, it had nothing to do with the finding of guilt of the defendant. Find me a cite for an Ohio court allowing polygraph evidence _during_\* a trial. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/82 "2006-03-18T00:53:21Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > wrong. no one takes a polygraph in anticpation of testifying unless he is innocent. As one cannot be forced to take a polygraph, (fifth amendment, and all), there will not be an adverse polygraph the introduction of which is barred by a defense refusal to stipulate. No? The police never pressure a suspect into a polygraph? ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/83 "2006-03-18T02:28:07Z")
Not to drag this thread back on topic or anything, but I am more amused than I probably should be that current proceedings in this matter are centering on [Carla Martin’s taint](http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002872014_webmoussaoui17.html). 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/84 "2006-03-18T02:46:20Z")
[People v. Adams](http://online.ceb.com/calcases/CA3/53CA3d109.htm): "It is undeniable that to date the great majority of appellate decisions in all jurisdictions have ruled polygraph evidence to be inadmissible. California opinions are with the majority. In 1957, in People v. Carter, 48 Cal.2d 737, on page 752 [312 P.2d 665], our California Supreme Court specifically stated that: “Lie detector tests do not as yet have enough reliability to justify the admission of expert testimony based on their results.” > [@alaric](#): > > The supreme court left undisturbed the Wilkinson (Witherspoon)ruling. It was, and still is, law in the state. The ruling in Witherspoon was directly, and uncontractedly overruled by statute. It is undeniably NOT good law, and you’d be laughed out of any courtroom if you tried to argue otherwise. And I’m still waiting for an actual cite to the hijacking crap you spew, but, at this point, don’t even bother. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/85 "2006-03-18T05:20:22Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > [People v. Adams](http://online.ceb.com/calcases/CA3/53CA3d109.htm): "It is undeniable that to date the great majority of appellate decisions in all jurisdictions have ruled polygraph evidence to be inadmissible. California opinions are with the majority. In 1957, in People v. Carter, 48 Cal.2d 737, on page 752 [312 P.2d 665], our California Supreme Court specifically stated that: “Lie detector tests do not as yet have enough reliability to justify the admission of expert testimony based on their results.” > > The ruling in Witherspoon was directly, and uncontractedly overruled by statute. It is undeniably NOT good law, and you’d be laughed out of any courtroom if you tried to argue otherwise. > > And I’m still waiting for an actual cite to the hijacking crap you spew, but, at this point, don’t even bother. you still do not seem to understand (by the way, way quote adams, it is overruled by witherspoon) thestatutory overrule goes only to criminal cases. Polygraphs are **routinely** admitted, particularly in child custody cases where allegations and counter-allegations frequently go to behavior for which there are nopercipient witnesses other than tha parties and where there is no physical evidence on which to base a finding of fact. (eg, allegations ofchild molestation) Return, if you will be so kind, to your speculations as to the motivation for the DA Association’s panic. And unless you have a law degree, leave off the uneducated attempts at legal research. Or, go to law school If you can get in… ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/86 "2006-03-18T05:23:29Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > No? The police never pressure a suspect into a polygraph? not when he is represented, and the polygraphs in coercive settings are easily imeached on the voir dire of the examiner. Try to stay in the real world. Furthermore, even a polygraph extracted from an unrepresented and effectively mirandized defendant would be irrelevant **UNLESS THE DEFENDANT TAKES THE STAND** How many criminal cases have you tried? ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/87 "2006-03-18T05:24:34Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Specious, **alaricthegoth** , specious. > > As anyone who cares to read the link (and [here](http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/rod/newpdf/8/2005/2005-ohio-28.pdf) is one that actually works) can tell, the polygraph was ordered by the court post-conviction for sentencing purposes, is only addressed in passing, and was not the subject of any part of the appeal. Though I agree that that is wrong and should not have happened, it had nothing to do with the finding of guilt of the defendant. Find me a cite for an Ohio court allowing polygraph evidence _during_\* a trial. it goes to reliability, counselor… ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/88 "2006-03-18T05:26:13Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > Not to drag this thread back on topic or anything, but I am more amused than I probably should be that current proceedings in this matter are centering on [Carla Martin’s taint](http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002872014_webmoussaoui17.html). 🙂 you can’t be serious…they didn’t really say “taint” did they?..she knd of looks like she might have a pretty one… ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/89 "2006-03-18T05:27:58Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > Not to drag this thread back on topic or anything, but I am more amused than I probably should be that current proceedings in this matter are centering on [Carla Martin’s taint](http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002872014_webmoussaoui17.html). 🙂 you can’t be serious…they didn’t really say “taint” did they?..she knd of looks like she might have a pretty one…shucks, they used the verb, not the noun, you sly dog you. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/90 "2006-03-18T12:23:30Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > Try to stay in the real world. Heh. Good one, **alaric**. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/91 "2006-03-18T13:43:52Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > you still do not seem to understand (by the way, way quote adams, it is overruled by witherspoon) Liar. You have convinced me that, in addition to making bizarre, senseless, poorly constructed arguments, that you are most definately not a lawyer, and, most likely, posting only to get a rise out of people, including me. I will simply put the truth, to counter your unresearched lies, out there for those who are reading, and not feed you. Witherspoon did not overrule Adams. > [@alaric](#): > > thestatutory overrule goes only to criminal cases. Polygraphs are **routinely** admitted, particularly in child custody cases where allegations and counter-allegations frequently go to behavior for which there are nopercipient witnesses other than tha parties and where there is no physical evidence on which to base a finding of fact. (eg, allegations ofchild molestation) Polygraphs in California are not “routinely admitted” in California. They are used more as an investigation tool than a “lie detector”. > [@alaric](#): > > Return, if you will be so kind, to your speculations as to the motivation for the DA Association’s panic. For which you have provided no cite, no legitimate argument, and no evidence supporting your position thta a) they pushed it through, and b) they did it to keep innocent people in jail. > [@alaric](#): > > And unless you have a law degree, leave off the uneducated attempts at legal research. > > Or, go to law school > > If you can get in… _snort_. You’re really a keeper, aren’t you? Go away kid, ya’ bother me. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/92 "2006-03-18T19:06:45Z")
Chill out, everybody, please. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/93 "2006-03-18T19:30:30Z")
**Moderator’s Note:** This forum is for debating; this thread is for debating the issues raised by the actions of a U.S. government lawyer in the Zacarias Moussaoui case. It is _ **not** _ for personal sniping at other posters on the SDMB. The snarkiness level of too many posters in this thread needs to be dialed back several notches, please. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/94 "2006-03-18T22:50:54Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > The snarkiness level of too many posters in this thread needs to be dialed back several notches, please. Yes. My apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/95 "2006-03-19T00:57:38Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Yes. My apologies. Damn right!!! Your snarkiness is the sole reason this thread has devolved, you ignorant slut. I too apologize for Frank’s [sub]but mostly my[/sub] uncouth behavior ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/96 "2006-03-19T06:02:25Z")
**how fascinating** obliged to visit my undecided interlocutor’s page in order to engage one of the features of the board, I discover that he lists his occupation as “prosecutor” All is thus explained. Refer to my original characterization of prosecutors for amplification… ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/97 "2006-03-19T06:18:43Z")
**Moderator’s Warning:** **Alaricthegoth** , _after_ I requested that everyone in this thread tone back the snarkiness, you’re not trying to imply that another poster on this board is a “venal, corrupt time-server”, are you? Don’t play games and don’t try to see how close to the line you can dance, or you could find your posting privileges gone. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2006, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/98 "2006-03-21T21:46:56Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > **how fascinating** obliged to visit my undecided interlocutor’s page in order to engage one of the features of the board, I discover that he lists his occupation as “prosecutor” > > All is thus explained. Refer to my original characterization of prosecutors for amplification… I was deeply wounded that you might me so reprobate as to fracture the fellowship of this board by insulting brother Hamlet. Not at all. You will, I hope, have noted the usage **quote** prosecutor **unquote** Having already expressed my firm conviction that Denmark’s Indecisive Doubter was, at best, an aspirant to law school, and given that, even in the most forgiving of jurisdictions the job of incarcerating the innocent is reserved to law school **graduates** , it should have been obvious to the most casual observer that I was assuming that the identification offered on his page was in the nature of a Dungeons and Dragons or similar fantasy game avatar, thus the enclosure of the word in quotation marks, a universal usage intended to exclude factual accuracy. If, in fact, he earns his living as a district attorney, I wish to make clear my conviction that he is that gem among prosecutors, an honest man; all sins being washed away by his practice of posting on this board. I specifically apologize in case I have misunderstood his page, and taken a factual statement for a fantasy avatar. In fact, let me add that he must then be, in actual fact, the Debra La Fave prosecutor, who, this very day, has proven me grievously incorrect in my blanket condemnation of the breed. Hamlet, if you cut Debbie loose, you are a good man, and I salute you. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2006, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234/99 "2006-03-21T21:54:50Z")
“might **think** me…” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witness-tampering-in-moussaoui-case-what-penalty-for-govt-lawyer/348234.md?page=4)