# Witnessed two soldiers kissing (same gender) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 9, 2007, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202 "2007-03-09T02:09:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![JustAnotherGeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/58f4c7/32.png) [@JustAnotherGeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustAnotherGeek)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/41 "2007-03-09T12:53:50Z")
[QUOTE=Sgt Schwartz] I am feeling that the general opinion is that I should keep this to myself regardless of the risks to myself and those involved. [/QUOTE] I do understand that you’re in a bizarre situation. I also understand that there are regs for when you need to report certain acts to the higher ups, and, if you don’t (and it’s later determined that you knew), you can get in career-jeopordizing trouble. That said, from your initial story, you had nothing but an assumption and some noise. Perhaps my distaste of this this reg made me answer too tersely. The real reg is more “don’t ask, don’t tell, but if you know, you must report.” I think you were right in informing the two in question that their actions could bring about legal consequences. Had I been there instead of you, I probably would have worded it a bit different (Look, the rules are very straight-forward, if I see it, I have to report it. Don’t let me, or anyone, see it.), but, then again, IANA sgt, have never been, and (barring some sort of reality distortion) never will be. Informing them of your responsibilities (regardless of how moral you think the rules are) may help them to understand the position you’re all in. As far as keeping it to yourself, if you mean not sending it up the chain, yes, that’s exactly what I think. Again, unless there’s more to the story than you’ve told us, you do not have proof. If you told your superiors, “I think I heard the sounds of a lip-to-lip kiss while I was reading paperwork,” what do you think their response would be? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/42 "2007-03-09T13:08:39Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] We are unlikely to provide a very large number of posters interested in military discipline and even those of us who will accept your position as uncomfortable in that regard will only include a small number of posters who agree with **Mr. Moto** that “them’s the rules.” So, I am pretty curious what sort of response you expected or sought? [/QUOTE] I don’t know if I made myself clear. The rules are the rules, but the rules can also be gamed by someone with an agenda. In the Navy, we used to call these folks “sea lawyers”. The purpose of NCOs is to provide leadership, and that means not only knowing what the rules are but how his soldiers might try to use them for their purposes. It also means understanding how those rules will affect his unit and its readiness. At no time in my posts did I advocate that **Sgt. Schwartz** just report the incident and let the chips fall. I floated the possibility that an agenda was in play, and I said that his understanding of his soldiers and his leadership skills would have to be the deciding factor. Not knowing the soldiers in question, I cannot say for certain that his decision was a good one, and even **Sgt. Schwartz** seems to struggle with it. However, given all of the factors involved, it probably was a sensible one. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/43 "2007-03-09T15:20:55Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] Don’t ask, _don’t te_ll. Isn’t that how you’re supposed to handle it? (I realize that’s directed toward the “perps” but why would you think this is anyone’s business but theirs?) [/QUOTE] As mentioned upthread, “don’t tell” means the soldiers don’t mention their own homosexuality. Supervisors are required to act on observed behavior. “Don’t do it again while in uniform” may not be enough either, if even off hours activities are monitered, as above. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/44 "2007-03-09T15:36:25Z")
[QUOTE=Sgt Schwartz] I am feeling that the general opinion is that I should keep this to myself regardless of the risks to myself and those involved. [/QUOTE] I think you should report what you saw, except that what you saw was nothing. I think you should have asked them point blank, “Did you just kiss?” You could then have proceeded from there. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/45 "2007-03-09T15:38:50Z")
[QUOTE=gigi] As mentioned upthread, “don’t tell” means the soldiers don’t mention their own homosexuality. Supervisors are required to act on observed behavior. “Don’t do it again while in uniform” may not be enough either, if even off hours activities are monitered, as above. [/QUOTE] I know. That’s what I said. 🙂 However, since the OP didn’t actually “see” the lip lock, I don’t think even a warning is in order. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/46 "2007-03-09T15:41:06Z")
I think you did the right thing. I think the reminder will help save everyone’s jobs (yours and theirs) and hopefully they respect you for not turning them in. How did they react when you told them? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/47 "2007-03-09T15:49:03Z")
1. Look up from your desk. 2. Growl “Get a room!” 3. Forget about it. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/48 "2007-03-09T16:33:37Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] I know. That’s what I said. 🙂 [/QUOTE] I thought maybe that’s what you meant. :o sorry ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/49 "2007-03-09T18:05:41Z")
[QUOTE=gigi] I thought maybe that’s what you meant. :o sorry [/QUOTE] No harm done…we’re on the same page! ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/50 "2007-03-09T20:00:15Z")
I would also like to know how they reacted to what you did (which sounded reasonable). Did they seem provocative, or defiant, or guilty, or what? If they are angling for an early discharge, they might up the ante. Not necessarily in some homosexual way, but something a bit more likely to get the reaction they are looking for. Some newly discovered medical problem, or a reason for a hardship discharge, or something of that nature. Or they are gay, and will become more discreet. Or they were pranking you, and either have wised up, or not. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Wee\_Bairn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90db22/32.png) [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/51 "2007-03-09T20:16:58Z")
Unless they were trying to get discharged, I can’t imagine two soldiers would pull an “in love” kiss in front of their superior. ---
**Author:** ![butler1850](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@butler1850](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butler1850)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/52 "2007-03-09T20:34:46Z")
IMO, it was a blatent showing of disrespect. Same as if they had walked in and flipped you the bird while screaming at you to “F\*\*\* Off!!!” What they do on their own time, in private, is nobody’s business but their own. What they did in front of you should be punished by whatever means you would normally apply. I’m certain to get tossed to the pit here about this issue, but I don’t kiss at work, I don’t show disrespect to my employer/supervisor/co-workers, and IMO these privates did both. Blatently. You showed far more restraint than I would have, so it’s probably a good thing that I never enlisted. ---
**Author:** ![zelie\_zelerton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/59ef9b/32.png) [@zelie\_zelerton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zelie_zelerton)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/53 "2007-03-09T20:56:01Z")
[QUOTE=Sgt Schwartz] Yes, both were on duty. No, it does not change the ability to preform assigned tasks. It could efffect me personally if I knew that this kind of thing happened and I did not document it and report it to my leaders. I am required to report statements, acts, or attempted marriages involving Service Members of the same gender. Sgt Schwartz [/QUOTE] What on earth is an attempted marriage? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Merkwurdigliebe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/74df32/32.png) [@Merkwurdigliebe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merkwurdigliebe)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/54 "2007-03-09T22:26:15Z")
I think you should explain the exact spacial situation of what happened. If they were standing outside your door, then that’s not as bad, if said PFC A was no less than 5 feet away from your desk (standing I assume) then it seems blatant. It simply doesn’t seem that it would be acceptable even for male/female pairings either to kiss in front of a supervisor. Was the situation more casual? It seems a bit staged, but who knows…I like Paul in Saudi’s response! But it seems as if it was done to provoke you. But then it’s hard to say, not knowing the layout of the room. Maybe they thought they would get away without getting caught. Kissing in public, breaks the “don’t tell” part of the rule, I think. But you can’t ask and you can’t tell. I suppose your response was about as appropriate as you could have done. The other choice was to ignore it, but then you don’t want them to think they can do whatever they want. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2007, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/55 "2007-03-10T00:18:48Z")
Sgt Schwartz, I’m assuming this was not a simple “hello” kiss. You need to counsel each soldier individually and document it on a DA 4856. -‘Key Points of Discussion’ should contain the Army’s policy on homosexual activity (verbatum), as well as a generalized paragraph explaining how _perception_ influences reality. Also, make sure to include a paragraph stating how such conduct can lead to disciplinary action as well as discharge, etc. Plan of Action section should include a part stating specifically that they will not make out other soldiers (of any sex) while on duty. Be very thorough in your statements and have them sign the forms. Then add it to their counseling packet. That’s all you need to do at this point. Nothing needs to be passed up to “higher”, provided the misconduct does not repeat itself. If the conduct continues, then you have the paper trail necessary to take action–should you so choose. At no time do you ask about the SM’s sexual orientation. And dont write anything that accuses them of being homosexual. Just reiterate the Army’s policy, be specific about what you saw, and explain why such conduct will not continue. The purpose of the counseling is basically to ensure they are aware of the Army’s policy and your interpretation of the rules and the consequences of violating them. That’s it. At this point, their sexual orientation is still irrelevant. It’s really not a big crisis. Just counsel them. Basically it’s what you just did verbally, but you need to do it officially. They will get the point and see that you’re not out to get them, but that you are also not going to let shit like that go unnoticed. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2007, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/56 "2007-03-10T00:28:48Z")
Reading this thread makes me wonder how many man-hours are wasted in the various branches of the military on bullshit like this. Not that the OP is in the wrong for being concerned about it: it’s the way the military works right now, and he’s got to roll with the system if he doesn’t want to hurt his career, but Jesus Christ, how fucking stupid is this law? Aren’t there about a hunderd billion more important things for our military to do than gossip about who kissed who like a gaggle of teenaged girls? ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2007, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/57 "2007-03-10T00:43:03Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Reading this thread makes me wonder how many man-hours are wasted in the various branches of the military on bullshit like this. Not that the OP is in the wrong for being concerned about it: it’s the way the military works right now, and he’s got to roll with the system if he doesn’t want to hurt his career, but Jesus Christ, how fucking stupid is this law? Aren’t there about a hunderd billion more important things for our military to do than gossip about who kissed who like a gaggle of teenaged girls? [/QUOTE] It’s not gossiping, and it’s not wasted manhours. It’s called professional development and it is one of the top priorities and responsibilities of an NCO. Hell, I’ve written counseling statements on privates for wearing their hats sideways. If you just say “hey, fix your hat” all the time, it’s not going to mean shit to them. If you put it in writing and explain what the penalties will be for continued indiscipline (like losing pay, extra duty, etc), then they will get the point and stop. Otherwise, they will be punished. And if you try to have the soldier placed on extra duty because you’ve “told him a thousand times that he needs to wear his hat properly”, then the 1SG or CO will want to see documentation. If you’ve only been ‘telling’ him, you’re fucked. All he has to do is go to JAG and they are going to request all the paperwork documenting the past events. If they dont exist, then the events never happened and the soldier gets off scot free. And then he goes back to the other privates talking about how he “got over” and “beat the system” and he infects the others like a god damn virus and before you know it, all hell is breaking lose and privates think they run the fucking show. Counseling them covers your ass and allows you to take their pay, take their free-time, give them extra work, and actually do something that will drive the point home. Yelling and push-ups dont do anything. You want to change someone, hit him where it hurts–his money and his time. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2007, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/58 "2007-03-10T00:47:58Z")
Bear Nenno, your advice strikes me as practically perfect, both for the reasoning behind it and clarity of its goal. Sgt Schwartz is fortunate that you happened by. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2007, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/59 "2007-03-10T00:59:29Z")
I’ve noticed that more and more, these days, I see young people greeting with a short kiss, even if they’re the same gender and even if they’re totally straight. Especially if they’re close and haven’t seen each other in a while. Absolutely nothing sexual is meant by it. My guess is that they’re younger than you are, and they were simply acting as other of their peers would act. They may have meant it as a casual greeting, as many their age do, and didn’t even stop to consider it as anything else. But you were correct in reminding them that it’s against regs. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2007, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/60 "2007-03-10T01:01:48Z")
I kinda think you missed my point, **Bear\_Nenno**. I get the importance of proper discipline in the military. I’m not saying that’s a waste of time. What is a waste of time is making sexuality a point of discipline. And yeah, I can see that there are other issues here than the possibility that these two soldiers are gay: fraternization, sexual relationships in the same chain of command, tongue wrestling in front of a superior officer. I get why these are bad things no matter what the sex of the soldiers involved. But the draconian nature of the “discipline” when it comes to gays makes the whole issue that much harder to negotiate. I suspect that if the two soldiers **Sgt. Schwartz** is talking about had been different genders, he wouldn’t have started this thread, but because they’re the same sex, the military’s frankly idiotic prejudice against gays makes the whole situation needlessly more complicated. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202.md?page=4)