# Witnessed two soldiers kissing (same gender) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 9, 2007, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202 "2007-03-09T02:09:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2007, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/61 "2007-03-10T01:11:56Z")
I agree also with Miller’s point that the regs about gays are draconian, even Neanderthal in their conception. “Don’t ask, don’t tell” was a poltical compromise. Clinton had many successes in his presidency, but that policy was one of his most boneheaded moves. It left a lot of people in the lurch who had counted on him to be their advocate. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2007, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/62 "2007-03-10T01:23:01Z")
I see. And for the record, I am completely against the military’s prejudice against gays. I speak my mind whenever I can and make my opinion known. The mindset of the majority of soldiers is just so unnecessarily negative towards homosexuality. Hell, I even had someone make a comment to me for watching Will and Grace while on Staff Duty. Apparantly there was a basketball game on or something. He was really genuinely disgusted that I would be watching that show. Not just disgusted, but set aback. WTF. However, I also thought that rule against wearing hats sideways was stupid too. I’m talking about off duty, civilian clothes, and baseball caps, not military uniform hats. Some General decided he didn’t like the way it looks, (and justified it by saying something about “gangs”) and so I had to enforce that rule regardless of how I feel about it. Fortunately though, I can force compliance with set regulations without going out on a witch hunt. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2007, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/63 "2007-03-10T01:24:38Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] I agree also with Miller’s point that the regs about gays are draconian, even Neanderthal in their conception. [/QUOTE] Me too. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2007, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/64 "2007-03-10T01:56:54Z")
[QUOTE=zelie zelerton] What on earth is an attempted marriage? 😕 [/QUOTE] The federal government (and hence the military) define marriage as the union of one man and one women. Therefore in their eyes it is impossible for a soldier to marry a member of the same sex. If a military said “PFC Doe” married a another man and is therefore discharged" it would imply that Doe is in fact married to another man when under federal law he is not. ---
**Author:** ![CaerieD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/da6949/32.png) [@CaerieD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaerieD)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2007, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/65 "2007-03-10T02:52:46Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] I think you should report what you saw, except that what you saw was nothing. I think you should have asked them point blank, “Did you just kiss?” You could then have proceeded from there. [/QUOTE] But wouldn’t asking them that violate the “don’t _ask_” portion of the policy? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2007, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/66 "2007-03-10T03:29:59Z")
Can you prove it if they deny it. ? If not you are apt to look like a fool. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2007, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/67 "2007-03-10T04:12:25Z")
[QUOTE=CaerieD] But wouldn’t asking them that violate the “don’t _ask_” portion of the policy? [/QUOTE] No since by engaging in coduct that could lead a reasonable person to conclude it was homosexual they “told”. ---
**Author:** ![Ruby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/13edae/32.png) [@Ruby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruby)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2007, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/68 "2007-03-10T04:50:36Z")
[QUOTE=Bear\_Nenno] Sgt Schwartz, I’m assuming this was not a simple “hello” kiss. You need to counsel each soldier individually and document it on a DA 4856. -‘Key Points of Discussion’ should contain the Army’s policy on homosexual activity (verbatum), as well as a generalized paragraph explaining how _perception_ influences reality. Also, make sure to include a paragraph stating how such conduct can lead to disciplinary action as well as discharge, etc. Plan of Action section should include a part stating specifically that they will not make out other soldiers (of any sex) while on duty. Be very thorough in your statements and have them sign the forms. Then add it to their counseling packet. That’s all you need to do at this point. Nothing needs to be passed up to “higher”, provided the misconduct does not repeat itself. If the conduct continues, then you have the paper trail necessary to take action–should you so choose. At no time do you ask about the SM’s sexual orientation. And dont write anything that accuses them of being homosexual. Just reiterate the Army’s policy, be specific about what you saw, and explain why such conduct will not continue. The purpose of the counseling is basically to ensure they are aware of the Army’s policy and your interpretation of the rules and the consequences of violating them. That’s it. At this point, their sexual orientation is still irrelevant. It’s really not a big crisis. Just counsel them. Basically it’s what you just did verbally, but you need to do it officially. They will get the point and see that you’re not out to get them, but that you are also not going to let shit like that go unnoticed. [/QUOTE] I just talked to Hub who disagrees with this advice. If Sgt Schwartz were to pursue this in any “official” way, he would have to support his counseling with what he DIDN’T see. Had Sgt. Schwartz (or anyone else) witnessed the event, he would totally support a counseling of both soldiers. Hub has had to officially deal with sexual harrassment and homosexual behavior situations both in peacetime and in combat and believes that Sgt. Schwartz would be a fool to pursue this any further. ---
**Author:** ![SSG\_Schwartz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@SSG\_Schwartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SSG_Schwartz)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2007, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/69 "2007-03-10T05:45:11Z")
Thank You **Bear Nenno** , I appreciate your thoughts and I was thinking on the same lines. The reasons I chose not to fill out a 4856 had to do with the fact that I did not want an official record of something that may never happen again. My First Sergeant and my Command Sergeant Major occasionally review the counseling packets of the soldiers (mostly to ensure they are done) and I don’t want this to become official on what may simply be a misunderstanding by the soldiers about Army policy. The two soldiers were females. One is 20yo, the other 25yo. I have a very small office and PFC B was seated when PFC A entered. True, I did not see the kiss, but as has been stated, perception is reality in the Army. I have know homosexuals and lesbians who I have served proudly with. I agree the military needs to rethink the don’t ask, don’t tell policy. Orientation should not be an issue, but at present it is. There are many regulations in the Army that I do not agree with (such as the prohibition against no alcohol by Service Members under 21 in the Continental US), but I have to enforce them. As to the reaction of the Soldiers: The older one had a nervous giggle, the younger one gave a brief guilty look. Because I was speaking as **Sgt Schwartz** there was no verbal response needed from either nor was one offered by the Soldiers. > [@](#): > > OP by tomandeb: > As to the response, here: you’ve been posting long enough that you have to have known that the overwhelming majority of posters are not bothered by homosexuality and consider “don’t ask; don’t tell” to be the stupidest decision imposed by the military (or by Congress acceding to plaintive cries from such military luminaries as Colin Powell) in recent history. > We are unlikely to provide a very large number of posters interested in military discipline and even those of us who will accept your position as uncomfortable in that regard will only include a small number of posters who agree with Mr. Moto that “them’s the rules.” > So, I am pretty curious what sort of response you expected or sought? I respect the opinions of most of the Dopers. I guess I was seeking confirmation of my actions. I know most of the people who post here do not have a military background, but even so, can have an opinion on this. Most people are at least familiar with the Military policy on homosexuality and I was interested in what a Doper who was faced with a similar situation might do. Sgt Schwartz ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2007, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/70 "2007-03-10T12:55:30Z")
[QUOTE=CaerieD] But wouldn’t asking them that violate the “don’t _ask_” portion of the policy? [/QUOTE] No, I don’t think so. It isn’t asking them to reveal their sexual orientation, it is asking them to bear witness to an event. “Did you just kiss?” is like asking them “Did you just close the door?”. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2007, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/71 "2007-03-10T18:42:39Z")
[QUOTE=Sgt Schwartz] Thank You **Bear Nenno** , I appreciate your thoughts and I was thinking on the same lines. The reasons I chose not to fill out a 4856 had to do with the fact that I did not want an official record of something that may never happen again. My First Sergeant and my Command Sergeant Major occasionally review the counseling packets of the soldiers (mostly to ensure they are done) and I don’t want this to become official on what may simply be a misunderstanding by the soldiers about Army policy. The two soldiers were females. One is 20yo, the other 25yo. […] As to the reaction of the Soldiers: The older one had a nervous giggle, the younger one gave a brief guilty look. Because I was speaking as **Sgt Schwartz** there was no verbal response needed from either nor was one offered by the Soldiers. [/QUOTE] OK, I can see here some well-appreciated willingness to make a judgement call on your part. With the information you indicate was available, my own take on this is that we may not have seen “gay” behavior, but rather “young females with very touchy-feely, expressive personalities” behavior, and that this may have been one of those situational dislocation moments not unknown to folks of all ranks, in which they momentarily revert to the default setting of “young person, back on the block” mode instead of the appropriate “member of the US Army, on-duty” mode. If so, then to put it “on the record” could be overkill IMO. If it repeats even once, OTOH, I would go ahead and proceed with all the formality, because at the least, it reveals a too-casual attitude. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2007, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/72 "2007-03-10T19:36:25Z")
Now that it has been handled…were they hot? ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2007, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/73 "2007-03-10T19:48:48Z")
They probably looked sheepish because they realized you might consider them gay. I looked pretty sheepish when I, wearing a men’s flannel shirt I bought because it’s lovely and warm, went to the (very hot) neighbour’s door and told him that the car in our mutual lot was my ‘girlfriend’s’. First thought: ‘make sure he knows your visiting pal is a gal’. Second thought: :smack: '‘girlfriend’ doesn’t just mean ‘friend who is female’. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2007, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/74 "2007-03-10T21:15:08Z")
[QUOTE=Sgt Schwartz] I agree the military needs to rethink the don’t ask, don’t tell policy. [/QUOTE] [It has been](http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/01/gays_in_the_military_-_rethinking_dont_ask_dont_tell/). ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2007, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/75 "2007-03-10T21:27:32Z")
I think **Sgt Schwartz** handled it correctly, for four reasons: 1. Obedience to the law and to orders is of particular importance in the military, for both the strength and discipline of the local unit, and also to ensure civilian control over the military. It doesn’t matter what you think of “don’t ask, don’t tell” - it’s the law passed by Congress and the military has to comply with it. 2. The NCOs are the backbone of ongoing unit discipline. It’s very much **Sgt Schwartz** ’s job to enforce the military law and ensure unit discipline. If something happens rights under his nose that is potentially contrary to military law and unit discipline, he has to respond to it. 3. However, he didn’t actually see anything, so I would think it would be difficult to start anything formal; it would just be his word against theirs, and without even him able to say he saw anything - just that he had his suspicions. Given the serious nature of the alleged infraction, I think he should be cautious about putting anything in writing without being able to back it up. 4. Even so, an NCO’s job isn’t equivalent to a police officer, who can only act on evidence that can stand up in a court of law. He’s the supervisor of the people in his unit. He can use informal discipline in a case like this, as a good NCO who knows what’s going on in his unit and lets the soldiers under his authority know about it. Progressive discipline has an important function - a warning in a case like this, without any formal follow-up, is a good approach. It puts the soldiers on notice that he saw them, that he won’t stand for it if it happens again, and that he’s watching them. That might be sufficient to resolve the issue, within the boundaries of “don’t ask, don’t tell.” ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2007, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/76 "2007-03-11T01:54:08Z")
[QUOTE=Ruby] I just talked to Hub who disagrees with this advice. If Sgt Schwartz were to pursue this in any “official” way, he would have to support his counseling with what he DIDN’T see. Had Sgt. Schwartz (or anyone else) witnessed the event, he would totally support a counseling of both soldiers. Hub has had to officially deal with sexual harrassment and homosexual behavior situations both in peacetime and in combat and believes that Sgt. Schwartz would be a fool to pursue this any further. [/QUOTE] One does not need to _support_ a counseling with anything. I can counsel soldiers for no reason at all. A counseling doesn’t necessarily mean anything other than the fact that it documents a conversation that you had with a soldier. If there is an ongoing problem that I am noticing in another platoon and I am concerned that one or more of my soldiers may be involved, I can and will counsel all of my soldiers on that particular thing. The counseling will include the Army’s policy on such action, the consequences of participating in such action, and my intent to pursue punishment if one of them participates in such a thing. When a soldier signs a counseling statement, they are not admitting anything other than the fact that they received the instructions, advice, reprimand, etc A 4856 by itself is not something that needs evidence, just cause, witnesses, or anything of that nature. I wonder why your husband would think otherwise. It’s not an Article 15, which _would_ require supporting evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2007, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/77 "2007-03-11T01:57:51Z")
[QUOTE=Sgt Schwartz] Thank You **Bear Nenno** , I appreciate your thoughts and I was thinking on the same lines. The reasons I chose not to fill out a 4856 had to do with the fact that I did not want an official record of something that may never happen again. … The two soldiers were females. One is 20yo, the other 25yo. I have a very small office and PFC B was seated when PFC A entered. [/quote] Most likely just a hello kiss. In that case I would have probably done exactly as you did, or maybe even less. I dont know. I dont have the luxary of working with females. Or should that read, “the burden”? ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2007, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/78 "2007-03-11T02:09:35Z")
If there was any question as to whether counseling and documentation was required, I’d call the JAG Off. If my recollection of the Army still applies, it’s better to CYA than hope for the best. The Army is pretty good with giving credit, but it’s _outstanding_ at assigning blame. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2007, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/79 "2007-03-11T05:19:35Z")
[QUOTE=Sgt Schwartz] Thank you all for your input. I am having a hard time processing this incident myself. I have a great deal of respect for both of these soldiers. I believe that both have respect for me, if not because of my personality, but for my duty position. I do not want either to be discharged. My response was: ``` You will never do that again while in uniform. ``` snip [/QUOTE] This is the part where, if I were them, after completing my service, I would hope to high heaven that I had your contact info so I could e-mail or mail you a picture of me kissing in uniform and if I were feeling up to it, pictures of me kissing in various nonmilitary uniforms. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2007, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202/80 "2007-03-11T05:46:24Z")
[QUOTE=Bear\_Nenno] Most likely just a hello kiss. In that case I would have probably done exactly as you did, or maybe even less. I dont know. I dont have the luxary of working with females. Or should that read, “the burden”? [/QUOTE] Was it my perception or did you change your opinion based on the fact that they were women? If you did change your opinion because they were women, why? I’m kinda curious. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessed-two-soldiers-kissing-same-gender/395202.md?page=5)