Let’s be clear about something. I was in the Navy for five years, and knew a few gay and lesbian sailors. The ones who were discreet about it did fine and usually weren’t bothered. The ones who made it public, or had it made public for them, generally had a really rough time.
So why would someone, knowing this, invite trouble this way, unless there might be a benefit of some kind at the other end? Like, for instance, an early out and a avoidance of deployment to the Mideast?
I agree, that does seem extremely stupid to do unless you want to get booted out.
That’s what I thought too; hearing a kiss doesn’t mean a thing, you are jumping to conclusions. Females kiss each other in greeting in certain social circles, and so do men. In my opinion, it would be morally wrong to take action, especially since you didn’t see anything. Is it normal in the military not to talk to your subordinates about inappropriate behavior?
The idea that you would get in trouble for something you didn’t see is preposterous.
So what’s actually against the rules in the military? Being homosexual? Acting homosexual? How does the military manage to define that?
I would either ignore it, or give a talking to the both of them that “I don’t care about who you fraternize with, but I do care about whether you will effect the morale or team spirit of others under my command. If you can’t keep your relationships private to both me and others, then I’ll boot your ass in two seconds. This is your one and only warning.”-type thing.
You can’t ignore it. Like I said, they chose to put on this show in front of their supervisor. That is disrespectful to him, and itself a breakdown of discipline.
I don’t know that it is proof of any kind of relationship, given the issues I outlined.
This is where your knowledge of your soldiers and your leadership skills have to kick in.
I have to agree with the other posters in that you didn’t actually see a kiss. You’re making an assumption based on what you think you heard and their “heads withdrawing”. Hub has been in the military 37 years and has the least tolerance of anyone I know (;)) and even he would likely say that unless you actually saw an act, you won’t likely be able to pursue it.
I also believe that anyone who is gay and in the military is quite familiar with the “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy currently in effect. Anyone who would engage in a blatantly sexual act with someone of the same sex in front of their SGT, is either too stupid beyond comprehension or has an agenda (ie looking to be discharged). I have to believe that you didn’t “see” what you think you saw.
The most I think you should do is to say something to them that their behavior didn’t go unnoticed and that… On second thought, just don’t go there. You didn’t see anything. Just let it go.
I’d say since you admit you didn’t actually see them kiss, I’d talk to them about it, but not report it. Warn them about what the consequences are if it happens again.
Report facts, not suspicions.
Actually having intercourse with someone of the same sex can land you in Leavenworth on a sodomy conviction. “Homosexual conduct” can get you a discharge. This inludes such things as; sexual intercourse, kissing, statements, handholding, pornography, getting a letter from an ex, being seen off-duty going into a gay bar, being seen off-base buying a copy of the Advocate*, etc. While it is a completely idiotic, immoral, digusting policy Sgt Schwartz is bound by oath to follow it.
*Yes, I met a guy who was seperated form the Army (fresh out of boot camp) for doing just that. :mad:
Thank you all for your input. I am having a hard time processing this incident myself. I have a great deal of respect for both of these soldiers. I believe that both have respect for me, if not because of my personality, but for my duty position. I do not want either to be discharged.
My response was:
You will never do that again while in uniform.
I made eye contact with both when I said that. I reallly hope that this is the last of it. I know, from recent conversations with both, that they want to serve out the initial enlistment. I also know that some people also kiss as greeting. I do know what I heard and it will not stand up in court, but it was lip to lip kissing.
I am feeling that the general opinion is that I should keep this to myself regardless of the risks to myself and those involved.
Sgt Schwartz
I think you handled it very well. I’m glad to know that there are people in the military such as yourself who can handle something like this in such a thoughtful way and not just react. Not that I think most people in the military are homophobic, but you were really put in an uncomfortable position.
If they were male, they were being pretty blatantly stupid if they do want to serve out their enlistment. It would seem that they are either idiotically innocent or they were baiting you for some odd reason.
If they were female, I am not sure that the same situation applies, (unless there was serious exchange of tongue), given that in U.S. society women do exchange kisses (even wet ones, although not passionate ones) as a form of greeting–particularly after an extended separation.
That, however, also raises a separate issue: are they, by any chance, of recent immigrant (2d generation or more recent) background? There are a number of societies in which even men greet each other with kisses. (Again, not passionate ones.)
As to the response, here: you’ve been posting long enough that you have to have known that the overwhelming majority of posters are not bothered by homosexuality and consider “don’t ask; don’t tell” to be the stupidest decision imposed by the military (or by Congress acceding to plaintive cries from such military luminaries as Colin Powell) in recent history.
We are unlikely to provide a very large number of posters interested in military discipline and even those of us who will accept your position as uncomfortable in that regard will only include a small number of posters who agree with Mr. Moto that “them’s the rules.”
So, I am pretty curious what sort of response you expected or sought?
For those of you who are insisting that MYOB is the only valid response, consider this scenario: Pfc’s A and B go at it again behind the mess tent and get caught by Cpl Tightass who duly reports them to Lt. Falwell. They get hauled up before the company commander and decide to try to muddy the waters by claiming that Sgt Schwartz “knew all about it.” It would be a pretty tough break to lose a career over such a stupid act of covering for some idiots who were pretty blatantly breaking the rules, even if the rules were among the dumbest imposed on human society.
That would be the word of a senior gen-u-wine macho guy-type man over the words of (gasp! :eek: ) people suffering from teh gay. Anyway, no matter what he ‘heard’, I would hope nobody would ever condemn somebody without actual evidence (i.e. visual confirmation of what you thought happened). I realize it’s hopelessly starry-eyed of me, but is it possible that the rules of evidence exist in the military, too? Because that would be nice.
Soldiers fight wars. Personally, I would view this as one war worth fighting. If anything, getting busted down in ranks or booted from the military is a lot better for your health than getting shot at.
That’s why I would have suggested against “minding your own buisness.” You’re their sup. It is your job to enforce the rules, rules that they knew of when they signed on the dotted line. Like the above example, I could see them saying something like that to hopefully get themselves out of trouble. Why should you jeapordize your career when they would sell you up the river in a moment?
Let’s not forget the president who signed it into law instead of vetoing it.
He was certainly a wimp, but he did not propose or vote on the legislation. I do not cut him any slack for botching that episode, but he was not the author.
Sounds like you handled it well Sgt Schwartz. Can you tell us now what gender they were? (I might buy the “cultural” excuse if they were women, but if they were men, even of immigrant origin, they’d have to be almost completely unsocialized in American society to think that lip-to-lip greetings were appropriate, especially in a work context.) Also, what did they say when you talked to them? Did they claim it was just a non-sexual way of greeting one another, or was there an unspoken acknowledgment that it was “something more”? If the latter, are you still legally obliged to do something?
Would it be acceptable behavior if they were different gender? I’d find that very strange in a regular job, same-gender or not!
I don’t know what the rules regarding “fraternizing” with the opposite sex are, but if it would be prohibited I suspect that (at least if they’re the same rank) the penalty would not be nearly as severe.
Don’t ask, don’t tell. Isn’t that how you’re supposed to handle it? (I realize that’s directed toward the “perps” but why would you think this is anyone’s business but theirs?)
It should be handled the same way a het relationship would, I suppose. If they were on the clock and supposedly working, not cool. But since you said you didn’t actually see the kiss, there’s nothing to report.