Without reading over the entire thread again, I think some of the other military folks here have said the same thing.
Question: how did you know they were gay, and if you did, weren’t you even then legally required to do something about it? Or did you just suspect they were gay, or find out only after they had retired?
Former military NCO here.
What would I do?
“Did you just kiss? You know what a PDA is? Watch your military bearing.”
For those of you in the thread who like to get all anal over military regs & shit, imagine a navy ship just returning from sea, or a battalion of Army just getting back from duty in Iraq. Lots of military folk who are required by the UCMJ to refrain from PDAs get to hold hands, hug, kiss and generally hang all over each other. You going to run out there armed with a stack of DA 48-whatsits? “I swore an oath to uphold military policy and I’m duty bound to counsel all of you!” :rolleyes:
An NCO is required to report it, reprimand the soldiers (sailors) in order to “cover their own ass?”
Baloney. Part of being an NCO is having a brain and using it.
The OP didn’t witness sex or homosexuality. He witnessed a PDA and told them to knock it off, which is about how he should have handled it IMO.
I would like to thank Sgt Schwartz for doing just that.
I agree. Handled well, Sgt Schwartz!
I happen to be teaching a course in ethics and will ask my class on Monday how they would have dealt with this situation. I have several members of the class who at one time were in the military, so it should be interesting to hear what they have to say.
Out of curiosity - I wonder if Sgt Schwartz would have dealt with the situation differently had it been two male soldiers?
(Gender bias on my part - I assume Sgt Schwartz is a heterosexual male and therefore would have had the “ick” factor to contend with two males kissing.)
What military regulation prohibits PDA? Especially “holding hands”?? The UCMJ doesn’t require anyone to refrain from PDA. You’re speaking nonsense. They get to “generally hang all over each other” because it’s appropriate conduct in that situation. Not because they’re getting a break on the rules.
Soldiers can hold hands with their wives on base and kiss their wives in public and hug them. There’s no reg against PDA.
However, two soldiers in the same unit should not be dating, period, so PDA between those two is forbidden for other reasons. Two soldiers, in uniform, from seperate units. That would have to be a situational thing. It’s not black and white. The main litmus test there is “Is it unprofessional?”.
I’ve watched couples eat together on their lunch break and kiss goodbye. Nothing wrong with that. They’re not “making out” or something obscene.
Wow, you’re so damn funny. You must have been a lousy NCO if you dont think the professional development of your soldiers is a top priority. 48-whatsits indeed.
Guess what, when soldiers perform well or do something above par, they also get counseled. Enough of those can help me justify an ARCOM instead of an AAM when the time comes for an award. They also help me give out impact AAMs and when little incentives come around, I know who’s getting them. At a minimum, a soldier should be counseled once a month regardless. NCOs who can’t find anything to put down in the counseling statements are those who are too worthless to have been doing anything to develop their soldiers all month.
No. I made an understandable yet inaccurate assumption that the OP was talking about more than just a “hello” type kiss.
If he had added details to explain that the two soldiers were Muslim or of some other heritage where kissing other males on the lips is custom then I would have agreed there was nothing more to it. But as the OP was originally written, and even the fact that it was written at all, lead me to believe this kiss was more than a peck and more than a “hello my friend”.
Exactly who are you quoting here? Is this a strawman, or are these quotations here because someone actually said that in this thread?
And who has claimed otherwise?
The original OP implied there was open and obvious display of homosexuality. The fact that he later added details to explain otherwise changes things.
Your blatant homophobia and ignorance of the UCMJ is absolutely amazing. I’m not exactly sure what you’re on about here. I’m surprised you don’t know that if your unit or the installation commander has issued instructions with regard to PDAs and you choose to ignore them you potentially run afoul of the UCMJ. Do I need to quote a UCMJ article about failure to obey orders or conduct unbecoming? "ART 92 , UCMJ (Failure to obey order/regulation). Second, traditionally PDA has been prohibited under ART 134, UCMJ (conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline). Specifically, PDA is mentioned in DA PAM 600-35. Here are a few quotes:
“Hand-holding between soldiers in uniform while in public is inappropriate.” (Para 2-5-b)
“At the same time, officer/enlisted family members are expected to maintain the traditional respect and decorum attending the official military relationship between them while either is on duty or in public.” (Para 2-8-b)
“[Example Soldiers] should be counseled that they are expected to maintain the traditional respect and decorum attending the official military relationship between them while either is on duty or in public.” (Para 2-10-d)"
Wow, let’s add “sexist.” You claim to speak on behalf of Army NCOs, you don’t even work with women and if you did you’d consider it a burden? My God you’re a classic piece of work.
What reasons pray tell, and where on earth did you get the idea these two PFCs were dating?
You sound kinda drunk or something.
:rolleyes:
Which two PFCs? I am talking about any. Nice of you to not pay attention.
Speaking of not paying attention. Your whole fucking post is absolutely ridiculous!!!
DA PAM 600-35 only concerns SOLDIERS OF DIFFERENT RANKS! Did you even read the fucking pamphlet that you are quoting from?
It does not say that PDA like holding hands with your wife while in uniform is outlawed or against UCMJ.
Oh what a fucking stretch that is. Of course disobeying a lawful order is against UCMJ. If a General said “No personnel are allowed to consume alcoholic beverages this month” that doesn’t mean that drinking beer is against UCMJ, it means that disobeying an order by means of drinking beer is against UCMJ. Fuck, you could claim anything is against UCMJ since a commander could possibly outlaw it. :rolleyes:
And you’re a classic piece of shit.
Gotta any more facts you’d like to pull out of your ass?
My blatant homophobia, eh?
You kinda sound like you have some kind of agenda. I don’t think even Otto could have found “blatant homophobia” in this thread.
When did I ever make that claim? You’re just full of made up bullshit tonight, aren’t you.
It is too late in the night to find all the things I need to respond to and quote them. So forgive me if I paraphrase or comment without attribution.
Yes, both are attractive. That does not affect my duties in any way. The only way I noticed was that I have seen both in civilian clothes and they do dress up nice.
No, it would not affect me in any way if the two involved were males. I would do the same thiing. Another squad leader in my platoon had a problem with a male who likes to hug people with no regard to gender. He was counseled on that. I do not know what the DA 4856 said, but he has maintained his bearing since that point.
It is a challenge for a male who has previously only trained and mentored males, to train and mentor females. Sexism aside, there is a different way to interact with females.
Again, thank you for all your input.
Sgt Schwartz
Well, I mean, I seriously doubt a gay couple would kiss due to a gay relationship when there is someone right there in the room with them who would be able to report them.
I hypothesize the kiss was non-sexual in nature. (And so I hypothesize that these were girl soldiers, not boy soldiers, because its really hard for me to imagine a couple of guy soldiers “friendly kissing.” Hard to imagine with girl soldiers too, but not as hard.)
-FrL-
See post #69, above.
How so?
I just want to point out that sometimes 2 people just kiss in a friendly manner, even two men. Take this event* that happened just a few weeks ago for instance.
*Not just that kiss, but the whole race between Charles Barkley and Dick Bavetta was one of the funniest things I have recently seen on TV. I laughed so hard I cried. And it all culminated with an slow motion instant replay of the kiss.
I think you’re absolutely right. He wouldn’t have started this thread. He would have disciplined them on the spot. Public displays of affection are not acceptable. But because of the policy he is put in a bad position, because he has to discipline them but quite obviously doesn’t want to run them out. To make matters worse, they are of the opposite sex and politics gets in the way.
He’s in a tough spot, and simply telling him “the policy sucks” or “mind your own business” doesn’t help, because the policy exists and he can’t mind his own business.
[Official Moderator Hat On]levdrakon and Bear_Nenno-this is NOT The BBQ Pit, and you both know better than to post in this manner in IMHO. Consider this an official warning.[/Official Moderator Hat On]
An official warning? Like a DA 4856? Ah, man. Can I check the “do not concur” box? I mean, I wasn’t the one who developed a potty mouth and I certainly didn’t start the exchange by calling anyone a lousy NCO and then going off on a tangent about AAMs & ARCOMs.
Oh, well. On with the show.
You’re saying two PFCs can’t date? No two soldiers can date? That’s incorrect. Two soldiers of the same rank in the same unit can date, and two soldiers from different units can certainly date.
Two soldiers of the same gender can’t date, the OP never said the two PFCs in question were dating and I wanted to know where you got the idea they were.
The relevant portion was an example of hand holding between soldiers being inappropriate. Are you saying holding hands with someone of the same rank is appropriate, then?
All I said was there are situations where one wouldn’t run out armed with a stack of DA 4856s and counsel everyone on the spot. There are plenty, plenty of soldiers married to each other and for instance, a happy homecoming event after being deployed for a long period would be one situation where it would be silly to counsel two soldiers for hugging and kissing.
I didn’t find “blatant homophobia” in “this thread” in general. I found it with your attitude about a “hello” kiss between two soldiers of the same gender.
See, you see an “obvious display of homosexuality” and I see a “hello” kiss absent-mindedly exchanged between two friends right in front of Sgt Schwartz’s desk. You advise the OP to officially counsel them about their homosexual behavior in writing on a DA 4856 and further advise the OP to be careful not to accuse them of being homosexual.
If two guys on the football or soccer field exchanged a quick hug or a pat on the butt would you also become alarmed and feel the need to document and counsel them in writing about their homosexual behavior?
Yes, frankly I do see homophobia in your perceptions and reactions to the two PFCs in the OP.
I have no idea why you invoked Otto in this and I’m curious what agenda you think I’m pursuing.
Didn’t see the kiss? Reactions of the general “drf, oops” sort? Sounds like you’ve got three possibilities here.
I think a response of “Knock it off, knuckleheads,” is pretty appropriate for all three. I suppose you’d have to handle it differently if you discovered the two of them grappling nekkid behind the canteen, but under the circumstances I think the object is more to squash silly, unprofessional behavior than start tossing official rulebooks around.
Ummm… the manager at Pizza Hut will get on your case for making out at work too.
It’s not work, don’t do it.
Unless you work in the entertainment industry, you are NOT being paid to kiss anyone!