# Witnessing in commercials **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 4, 2005, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessing-in-commercials/302411 "2005-05-04T18:06:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessing-in-commercials/302411/21 "2005-05-06T12:46:31Z")
Another point; There seems to be a lot of noise now about removing the mention of God from all public places. This has some Chrsitians up in arms. I think personnel expression {as in your place of buisness} is one response to that. I can see some possible problems coming from it. I hope our society becomes less divided with people expressing themseleves but still respecting others rights to do that. I’d hate to see more division in the economic arena. Christians supporting Christian buisnesses based on belief rather than merrit. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessing-in-commercials/302411/22 "2005-05-06T13:13:01Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I’ve been getting junk Email from some company that advertises Christian family loans. What the heck does that mean? They’re Jesus approved? They only loan to Christians? I’ve encountered [Christian real estate](http://www.google.com/search?q=%22christian+real+estate%22&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official), too. After blockbusting in the 1950s, the real estate industry is typically extremely self-conscious about the perception of discrimination. How are “Christian real estate agents” viewed among the profession? What makes a house “Christian?” I assume that the target market for all these businesses advertising themselves as “Christian” isn’t your average Lutheran, Presbyterian, Catholic and Methodist, but rather CHRISTIANS – all caps – who are fundamentalist and tend wear theirfaith on their sleeve. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessing-in-commercials/302411/23 "2005-05-06T13:20:24Z")
It’s his business, and if he wants to thank God for his success he can do it. And if he wants to appeal to Christian customers, he definitely can seek them where he can. Only ethical conflict, as stated before, is if he were faking it. I recall around there in the late 90s-early 00’s there was a gym, whose owner was a retired Pro Wrestler, that on the outside signage had “JESUS IS LORD” so prominently displayed that a casual passerby could think that was the name of the business (he has since sold out and it now it has an ordinary billboard). One of the carry-out places that sends their menus to our office fax machine puts on the footer of the page either a quote of scripture or inspirational lit every so often, but unobtrusively, and it’s always a passage about peace or forgiveness or other such value rather than a direct “Got Jesus?” type thing. I remember back 15 years ago, at the company I worked at the time in Baltimore, there was a Florida-based transport provider we used who would place a very discreet, small Ichthyus in the corner of one page of their foldouts. But they had proved themselves competent, cost-competitive, and professional in their performance before we noticed that – and at the time, half our staff would not have recognized it. In their publicity materials only _one_ of the testimonials from other customers made reference to it, and they too said they only noticed afterwards. Hell, back when I lived stateside it was something of a joke that some car dealers would seem to compete over who had the hughest honkin’ US flag over their lot (does that still go on?), apparently trying to look patriotic (I wondered if they made sure every model in their lot came from Detroit…). ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessing-in-commercials/302411/24 "2005-05-06T13:49:24Z")
All the beverage cups at [In-n-Out Burger](http://www.snopes.com/business/alliance/inandout.asp) have bible verses (like “John 3:16”) printed on them in very small letters at the bottom. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessing-in-commercials/302411/25 "2005-05-06T14:25:23Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > It’s his business, and if he wants to thank God for his success he can do it. And if he wants to appeal to Christian customers, he definitely can seek them where he can. Only ethical conflict, as stated before, is if he were faking it. So misrepresenting your product as good because of your religion is ok but misrepresenting your religion related to a good product is not? ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessing-in-commercials/302411/26 "2005-05-06T14:32:14Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Well, Jesus _was_ a carpenter, so he might have better roofing and siding skills than, say, Allah, Buddha or Satan. In that case, never take sky diving lessons from a Satanist. ---
**Author:** ![yo\_no\_se](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b487fb/32.png) [@yo\_no\_se](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yo_no_se)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessing-in-commercials/302411/27 "2005-05-06T15:08:47Z")
I lump this kind of ‘witnessing’ within the same group as, for example, athletes when they credit God or Jesus for their success, or group together for prayer beofre the game in the locker room and/or at mid-field post game. I am a non-devout Catholic as well as a devout Golfer. When Jones won the U.S. Open in the mid 90’s, I remember him crediting a higher authority for his accomplishment. I wasn’t offended, just thought it was tacky. Real faith, to me, is something deeply personal and just between you and ‘thee’. Those that wish to go ‘shout in from a mountain’ are certainly fee to do so. I just think it is tacky. Think about the football players, for instance. What are they praying for? For the assistance to kick the other team’s butt? Not to get hurt? For help to find it within themselves to be all they can be? I would imagine such scenes really irk the devout. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessing-in-commercials/302411/28 "2005-05-07T00:58:21Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > So misrepresenting your product as good because of your religion is ok but misrepresenting your religion related to a good product is not? Whether he is faking being a good Christian or he is faking having a good product, he’s faking it. If his product IS good AND he sincerely thinks Christ has a hand in it, no problem. If his product is crap but he thinks his Christianity makes up for that, he’s fooling himself (and the customer). ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessing-in-commercials/302411/29 "2005-05-07T11:25:48Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > So misrepresenting your product as good because of your religion is ok but misrepresenting your religion related to a good product is not? quotes by me earlier; > [@](#): > > If he takes his religion seriously then that means he’s honest and hard working and will ask a fair {not inflated} price. I see nothing wrong with a “Thank God” in any form in buisness. It would be unwise to assume this person is honest and hard working simply because he mentions Jesus. If he thanks Jesus and then is less than 100% honest in how he conducts business then he’s a hypocryte. He might sincerely thank Jesus and honestly not be good at his job. Thanking Jesus doesn’t gaurentee competency. In that case he would be a non hypocritical incompetent. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessing-in-commercials/302411/30 "2005-05-07T15:14:39Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > There seems to be a fair amount of unfounded belief (not necessarily held by the OP, but similar ideas have popped up here in the past) that SOCAS makes public religiosity illegal. > [@cosmodan](#): > > Another point; There seems to be a lot of noise now about removing the mention of God from all public places. This is the weirdest thing to me; I’ve never heard of any serious intention to remove religious displays from _all_ public places, only _government-related_ places. (Not that I doubt that _some_ nutjobs do actually advocate it.) I mean, the ACLU (that supposed bastion of religion hatin’ secularists) has defended various cases in support of public religious display. It seems to me that the noise is generally created by the believers themselves… ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessing-in-commercials/302411/31 "2005-05-07T19:03:34Z")
> [@yo no se](#): > > Think about the football players, for instance. What are they praying for? For the assistance to kick the other team’s butt? Not to get hurt? For help to find it within themselves to be all they can be? I would imagine such scenes really irk the devout. Or, as one comedian put it, how come when they lose, they never say, “Well, I would’ve scored a touch down but Jesus made me fumble!” ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2005, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessing-in-commercials/302411/32 "2005-05-08T15:04:25Z")
> [@Digital Stimulus](#): > > This is the weirdest thing to me; I’ve never heard of any serious intention to remove religious displays from _all_ public places, only _government-related_ places. (Not that I doubt that _some_ nutjobs do actually advocate it.) I mean, the ACLU (that supposed bastion of religion hatin’ secularists) has defended various cases in support of public religious display. It seems to me that the noise is generally created by the believers themselves… You are correct. I misstated. I did mean all govermemnt related. Even at that I don’t see a problem in allowing a little more local control. If a community is 90% Christian and want to put a copy of the ten commandments in City Hall or at the court house so what? Does it feel oppresive to Muslims, Buddhists, or Atheist just knowing they’re out voted on something like that? Grow up! On the other hand as communities grow that are predominantly Muslim,Hindu or whatever then Christians should support equal rights for them. The folks who claim Christianity has some sort of spiritual dibbs on the US are delusional. ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessing-in-commercials/302411/33 "2005-05-10T02:13:36Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Another point; There seems to be a lot of noise now about removing the mention of God from all public places. This has some Chrsitians up in arms. The only place this noise is coming from is from fundamentalists and the radical right, who are spreading the idea that this is what people REALLY want if they are against government sanctioned religious worship or government recognition of faith (i.e. no Ten Commandments in courtrooms; remove God from currency, etc.) Back to the OP: it’s not immoral, unethical, or illegal, but it does have business ramifications. As an agnostic atheist, I would probably choose someone who didn’t include religion in their ad over someone who did. I tend to feel that it is suspicious, anyway. Does an honest man really tout his religion to trump up business? ---
**Author:** ![Gamaliel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b487fb/32.png) [@Gamaliel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gamaliel)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessing-in-commercials/302411/34 "2005-05-10T02:29:43Z")
A local spy shop always has “Jesus is Lord” in their ads. I guess Jesus wants you to get a spy on thy neighbor. In general, I think it’s tacky. And it would probably make me less likely to patronize a business, especially for high ticket items or projects. Like the Pharisees, often the people who proclaim their piety the loudest are the least likely to practice it in private. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessing-in-commercials/302411/35 "2005-05-10T05:16:45Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Does it feel oppresive to Muslims, Buddhists, or Atheist just knowing they’re out voted on something like that? I’d think it’s not the “knowing they’re out voted” that is oppressive; it’s the true-believers’ overbearing vocality, self-righteousness, and flagrant desire to force beliefs on others that is oppressive. That sentiment, no matter how trivial, should not be allowed to be coupled with the ability to influence governmental bodies that make law for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessing-in-commercials/302411/36 "2005-05-10T13:00:12Z")
> [@Digital Stimulus](#): > > I’d think it’s not the “knowing they’re out voted” that is oppressive; it’s the true-believers’ overbearing vocality, self-righteousness, and flagrant desire to force beliefs on others that is oppressive. > > That sentiment, no matter how trivial, should not be allowed to be coupled with the ability to influence governmental bodies that make law for everyone. So, not letting any religous material appear in any public forum that is related to local or federal governmet is the answer? I’m not sure about that. There are already laws on the books about denying any person or group the right to worship as they choose. If the flagrent desire to force beliefs on others steps over that line then enforce the law. I’d encourage more communication and understanding about different beliefs in schools and elsewhere and stress the foundational concept of religous freedom. I think that would be more helpful than “keep it to yourself” ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessing-in-commercials/302411/37 "2005-05-10T13:12:54Z")
[QUOTE] > [@fluiddruid](#): > > The only place this noise is coming from is from fundamentalists and the radical right, who are spreading the idea that this is what people REALLY want if they are against government sanctioned religious worship or government recognition of faith (i.e. no Ten Commandments in courtrooms; remove God from currency, etc.) I’m not so sure. I guess we’re in the process of decideing what the 1st amendment really means. I see it as government shall not sanction or show favoritism toward a particular religion. No religion will ever become the official religion of our country. To mean that doesn’t mean the complete removal of any mention of God from anything associated with goverment. Those who inssist the 1st amendment means exactly that are just as extreme as those who want to save the country for Jesus. > [@](#): > > Back to the OP: it’s not immoral, unethical, or illegal, but it does have business ramifications. As an agnostic atheist, I would probably choose someone who didn’t include religion in their ad over someone who did. I tend to feel that it is suspicious, anyway. Does an honest man really tout his religion to trump up business? I agree. If someone has a picture of Christ, Buddha, or Mohammed, in their place of buisness or something that subtly expresses their faith then good for them. If a plumber or electrician wears a cross or whatever, fine. To place it in your advertiseing is a little tacky and suspicious. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessing-in-commercials/302411/38 "2005-05-10T13:26:12Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > So, not letting any religous material appear in any public forum that is related to local or federal governmet is the answer? In my opinion, yes, although I’d not say “_any_ religious material” and opt for “material that advocates for any one particular belief”. But note also that there is a qualification regarding what you’ve termed “oppressiveness”. I readily admit that it’s a grey area as to what extent religious displays should be allowed with respect to governmental institutions and what standards are used to determine what is acceptable and not. But this is straying from the OP; perhaps another thread should be opened to debate that, although I’m sure there have been some already. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessing-in-commercials/302411/39 "2005-05-10T13:52:50Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > What makes a house “Christian?” A large, gory crucifix fastened to the ceiling above each bed. With blue LED’s in the eyes. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessing-in-commercials/302411/40 "2005-05-10T14:23:53Z")
> [@Digital Stimulus](#): > > In my opinion, yes, although I’d not say “_any_ religious material” and opt for “material that advocates for any one particular belief”. But note also that there is a qualification regarding what you’ve termed “oppressiveness”. I readily admit that it’s a grey area as to what extent religious displays should be allowed with respect to governmental institutions and what standards are used to determine what is acceptable and not. > > But this is straying from the OP; perhaps another thread should be opened to debate that, although I’m sure there have been some already. For some people the term God is advocating certain religions while excluding others. Some Atheists insist that seeing any relgious material on government property is violating the first amendment. Hogwash, I say. What religious material do you think would not be advocating some specific belief while not excluding others? On the other hand, If equality means putting up a symbol from every religion everytime any religoous symbol appears on government property, then no religious symbols would be easier and less exspensive. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessing-in-commercials/302411.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witnessing-in-commercials/302411.md?page=3)