# WMD found and were ready to fire. Neener Neener Neener!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 7, 2003, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111 "2003-04-07T17:50:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/81 "2003-04-08T02:02:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > \*\*So you’re saying that what should determine whether we go to war is the level of popular support for the war, once it’s underway? > > To implement your theory, all we need is a good time machine. \*\* Or, in our zeal to try and “prove” our point ;), we could just ignore that polls showed just over half of all Americans supported the war before it started, hmm? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/82 "2003-04-08T02:48:43Z")
It’s irrelevant anyway. Even if we found a thousand nuclear missiles aimed right at GWB’s butthole, we still would not have justified the invasuon. The invasion was illegal at the time it was lost and no amount after-the-fact “evidence” will make the invasion legitimate. The claim that the US was acting in defense of an imminent threat is still laughable because the missiles in question can’t _reach_ the US. Popular support does not legitimize the invasion either. Hitler’s invasion of Poland had enormous popular support in Germany, so what? > [@](#): > > **Weirddave** said: > Oh thank God, I was afraid none of the lunatic fringe was going to bring this one up, it’s why I made the point earlier about the discoveries being confirmed by the embedded reporter with that unit, he’s a neutral observer. “Embedding” reporters with the troops destroys their objectivity. It is impossible to remain detatched when you spend weeks or months on the frontlines bonding with the soldiers and being dependant on them for your own survival. The embedded reportrers are effectively PR flaks for the military. They are basically just a bunch of glory-seeking, ass-kissing, toady suck-ups with a healthy case of Stockholm syndrome. I don’t believe a fucking word they say ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/83 "2003-04-08T02:50:34Z")
That should have said "The invasion was illegal at the time it was **launched** , not “lost.” A little Freudian slip there I think… ---
**Author:** ![White\_Lightning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@White\_Lightning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/White_Lightning)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/84 "2003-04-08T03:03:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by \*\*bluetrust \*\*\* > This right here is fucking stupid. How do you prove that something doesn’t exist? Does this make sense to anyone? Not to me. Which is why the justification for this war always seemed like so much BS to me; we invaded because the UN inspectors were unable to prove a negative. > [@](#): > > God damn these fucking political elitists who can’t even put a sentence together without looking like an idiot. Indeed. I trust the irony here does not go unnoticed. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/85 "2003-04-08T03:03:40Z")
As I said before, al-Jazira has embedded reporters, I am sure they will be fascinated to know that they’re “a bunch of glory-seeking, ass-kissing, toady suck-ups with a healthy case of Stockholm syndrome”. Anyhow, I’m glad you’ve clarified your location, you’re just the other side of reality. I know I’m going to regeret asking this, but I’m curious: How exactly do you define “Illegal” when refering to the war. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/86 "2003-04-08T03:18:43Z")
Illegal means in violation of the UN charter. I’ve already posted that fucking thing in like three other threads please don’t make me do it again. The legal justifications for aggression against another nations’s sovereignty are clearly defined as self-defense. or aginst an clear and unambiguous “imminent threat” from another country. The veracity of an “imminent threat” is to be defined by the UN only. THe UN charter has the same authority of law in the US as the constitution. Neither of the conditions for aggression was met before the invasion. The invasion was illegal. QED. and Bush is a fucking war criminal. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/87 "2003-04-08T03:26:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Naturally. If they were capably if thinking clearly and rationally, they wouldn’t be pro-war. Right! The people who hold mass vomitings are the rational thinkers of the world, huh? ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/88 "2003-04-08T03:27:34Z")
> [@](#): > > The invasion was illegal at the time it was lost and no amount after-the-fact “evidence” will make the invasion legitimate. So you’re claiming that, at no time, did Saddam ever violate ANY of the UN sanctions imposed against him? He didn’t, oh, kill a few thousand Kurds? He didn’t, oh, have his men fire AA missiles at American and British planes patrolling the no-fly zone? Why don’t you go delude yourself elsewhere, DTC? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/89 "2003-04-08T03:45:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SPOOFE \* > \*\*So you’re claiming that, at no time, did Saddam ever violate ANY of the UN sanctions imposed against him? He didn’t, oh, kill a few thousand Kurds? He didn’t, oh, have his men fire AA missiles at American and British planes patrolling the no-fly zone? > > Why don’t you go delude yourself elsewhere, DTC? \*\* The gassing of the Kurds was done with the full knowledge and support of the US government. Any post-Gulf war violations of the UN resolution are for the _UN_ to deal with, not the US. Bush Jr. has no legal authority to enforce UN resolutions on his own. If you know you have a crack house in your neighborhood, and the police are doing nothing about it, you still do not have the right to organize a posse and raid it on your own. If you were to kill a drug dealer in that raid, you would not be acting with any legal authority or under any imprematur of law enforcement. You would be committing murder under the law no matter how much of a scumbag the victim might be, or how popular your actions might be with the public. As a matter of pure law, GWB is a criminal. He’s Travis fucking Bickle with an army. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/90 "2003-04-08T03:47:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Illegal means in violation of the UN charter. I’ve already posted that fucking thing in like three other threads please don’t make me do it again. > > The legal justifications for aggression against another nations’s sovereignty are clearly defined as self-defense. or aginst an clear and unambiguous “imminent threat” from another country. The veracity of an “imminent threat” is to be defined by the UN only. THe UN charter has the same authority of law in the US as the constitution. > > Neither of the conditions for aggression was met before the invasion. The invasion was illegal. QED. > and Bush is a fucking war criminal. \*\* The UN Charter does NOT have the same authority of law in the U.S. as the Constitution. Jeeze, do some basic reaserch, will ya? If the above was true, the U.S. would no longer be a soverign nation. EVEN if you classify U.S. actions as in violation of treaty- based on the reasoning proposed by RTF above-shakey reasoning at best, and unlikely to convince many people- A Soverign Nation always has the option of breaking a treaty and remaining a soverign nation. Jimminy Christmas, this is 101 level stuff here, very basic! I mean, have you got any clue as to how the real world works? How old are you, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Mandelstam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Mandelstam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandelstam)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/91 "2003-04-08T04:06:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tejota \* > \*\*Naturally. If they were capably if thinking clearly and rationally, they wouldn’t be pro-war. ☹ \*\* True enough **Tejota** , though, to be honest, this thread is a bit surreal. When I replied to **CR** I thought he (she?) was doing the usual freedom fries thing, but it turns out that was a sarcastic post. Now **White Lightning** seems to think (as I suspected might be possible in my last) that **bluetrust** ’s assholish-sounding post was actually an attempt to rebut what he (she?) thought was an anti-French comment on _my_ part. What “political elitism” would, in that case, have to do with anything is beyond me since I wouldn’t call french-bashing an elitist pastime. Well we may never get to the bottom of things unless **CR** sticks to using smilies, and **bluetrust** decides to grow up and play “nice” on the Internet ;). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/92 "2003-04-08T04:12:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > \*\*The UN Charter does NOT have the same authority of law in the U.S. as the Constitution. Jeeze, do some basic reaserch, will ya? If the above was true, the U.S. would no longer be a soverign nation. EVEN if you classify U.S. actions as in violation of treaty- based on the reasoning proposed by RTF above-shakey reasoning at best, and unlikely to convince many people- A Soverign Nation always has the option of breaking a treaty and remaining a soverign nation. Jimminy Christmas, this is 101 level stuff here, very basic! I mean, have you got any clue as to how the real world works? How old are you, anyway? \*\* > [@](#): > > \*_[United States Constitution, Article VI, clause 2:](http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Constitution.html) > This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding._ ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/93 "2003-04-08T04:26:31Z")
What the… Ummm…that clause says that states can’t pass laws that supercede the Constitution or individualy break treaties signed by the U.S. Government. It does not say that treaties are equal in stature to the U.S. Constitution. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/94 "2003-04-08T04:33:21Z")
> [@](#): > > “Embedding” reporters with the troops destroys their objectivity. It is impossible to remain detatched when you spend weeks or months on the frontlines bonding with the soldiers and being dependant on them for your own survival. The embedded reportrers are effectively PR flaks for the military. They are basically just a bunch of glory-seeking, ass-kissing, toady suck-ups with a healthy case of Stockholm syndrome. I don’t believe a fucking word they say[.] Oh, I do so love this. The closest thing humanly possible to giving reporters autonomy in a war zone while giving them unfettered access to actual happenings on the battlefield, while imposing very few restrictions on them (“Here! Have a satphone and your own fucking vehicle! Just don’t tell everybody where we are.”) and you don’t trust their professional ethics. How incredibly insulting. You actually enjoy flinging unsubstantiated accusations, don’t you? “Oh, but it can’t be true! Why? Cause I say it can’t, and poor set-upon Uncle Saddam can’t actually have WMD’s, cause he’s all warm and cuddly and fluffy and stuff, while we’re horrible, horrible people!” \< **DtC** happily self-flagellates, wallowing in self-loathing\> ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/95 "2003-04-08T04:36:28Z")
Just to expand on the supremacy clause, once a treaty has been ratified by congress, it has the same authority as a constitutional amendment (although a foreign treaty cannot override or amend any part of the constitution) and can only be broken if the security or sovereignty of the US is threatened. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/96 "2003-04-08T04:51:35Z")
> [@](#): > > “Oh, but it can’t be true! Why? Cause I say it can’t, and poor set-upon Uncle Saddam can’t actually have WMD’s, cause he’s all warm and cuddly and fluffy and stuff, while we’re horrible, horrible people!” It doesn’t fucking matter if Saddam has WMD’s, it’s completely beside the point. We had no evidence before the invasion, and if we _had_ seen evidence, we would have still had to prove that Iraq could hurt the US with those weapons. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/97 "2003-04-08T04:55:52Z")
We`ve heard the term “US interests being threatened”. Can the US extend itself to its “interests” when it comes to defense and security. Vague, I know, but it will come up sooner or later. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/98 "2003-04-08T04:57:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*It doesn’t fucking matter if Saddam has WMD’s, it’s completely beside the point. We had no evidence before the invasion, and if we _had_ seen evidence, we would have still had to prove that Iraq could hurt the US with those weapons. \*\* We knew he _had_ chemical agents and a weapons program. We weren`t satisfied that they were destroyed or terminated. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/99 "2003-04-08T04:59:49Z")
No, dear. Try to keep up, and try not to foam on the carpet if at all possible. You claim it’s a plant. You have no proof, yet you fling the accusation. Do you have some reason for this statement, other than your own self-loathing at being a Horrible American? No? Thus my statement that you think it can’t be true simply because you say so. The rest was icing. Insulting icing, sure, but hey. We’re all adults here. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/100 "2003-04-08T05:00:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*The gassing of the Kurds was done with the full knowledge and support of the US government. OK, I have to ask for a cite on this one. As for your claims regarding the UN Charter; I’m not sure that “supreme power” means exactly what you think it means. In the context of the paragraph you quoted, it clearly means that Federal Law trumps State Laws. It doesn’t mean that a treaty has the same force of law as the Constitution. it can be persuasively argued that the President has the executive power to cancel treaties ([http://www.fed-soc.org/Publications/White%20Papers/ABM.htm](http://www.fed-soc.org/Publications/White%20Papers/ABM.htm)). This is different than amending the Constitution which requires the ratification of a majority of the States. Further, the President has the ability to determine the execution of treaties; so regardless of what you think; the Executive branch and not you gets to judge whether this war is a legal interpretation of the UN Charter or not. Ill-advised? Maybe. A public relations nightmare? Sure. Illegal? At the very least, debatable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111.md?page=6)