# WMD found and were ready to fire. Neener Neener Neener!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 7, 2003, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111 "2003-04-07T17:50:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/121 "2003-04-08T10:06:54Z")
> [@](#): > > It lies in open economic trade and the strong discouragement of religion in government If it works there, maybe we’ll try it here. ---
**Author:** ![elfje](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19b73/32.png) [@elfje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfje)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/122 "2003-04-08T12:22:00Z")
seems like the WMD they thought they found, could be insecticide [http://www.unison.ie/irish\_independent/stories.php3?ca=33&si=950375&issue\_id=9011](http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=33&si=950375&issue_id=9011) I would find it highly unlikely that Saddam would hide his WMD in Baghdad. It was always a given that US/Uk would bomb the capital very intensively, and he would not have exposed himself to chemicals and /or biological agents. IF Iraq harbours WMD, they’d be out in the desert somewhere, methinks, at a safe distance from all his lush palaces. And I still wonder: if he has these weapons, why hasn’t he used them by now? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/123 "2003-04-08T12:30:55Z")
Hey, he’s just that kind of a guy, all tender-hearted. And stuff. ---
**Author:** ![elfje](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19b73/32.png) [@elfje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfje)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/124 "2003-04-08T12:51:30Z")
no, but he looks out for his own interests. Wouldn’t you? oh, I forgot, you already are… ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/125 "2003-04-08T12:55:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SPOOFE \* > \*\*Bad analogy, DTC. Here’s a better one: Let’s say you’re a cop, part of a large group of many police. Part of your job is to watch people and make sure they don’t commit any crimes… and if you catch somebody committing a crime, you’re to call for backup. > > Now, in the process of doing your job, a bad guy walks up and starts punching you in the face. Do you, A: punch him back, wrestle him to the ground, and restrain him, or B: call for backup, and wait for said backup, even if that backup doesn’t, y’know, back you up? > > You’re suggesting that we, the United States, which has been enforcing the US sanctions (alone with the UK) for well over a decade, do B. I’m sorry, my dear imbecile, but that’s insane. \*\* That’s a horrible fucking analogy. America’s not a cop. The UN is the cops, the US is just a vigilante. It’s not America’s “job” to watch _any_ fucking body or enforce _any_ fucking thing and Iraq never punched us (or anybody else) in the face. My crack house analogy is far more accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/126 "2003-04-08T13:14:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tars Tarkas \* > \*\* > And how about some cites that the war is ending terrorism? Since you love cites and all. I’ll even predict your reply: “Why should I supply cites, you’re the one making all the claims. My claims that terrorism will not sprout from this war are not claims at all. And media bias.” \*\* Except I haven’t claimed that terrorism will not sprout from the war. I’ve said that you screaming that “we’ve created thousands of new terrorists!!” is nothing more than hysterical, the-sky-is-falling bullshit and have given you the chance to back up your claims with facts. You have refused to do so, chosing intead to use 1st grade insults and outright lies about what _I_ have posted. Just once I would like to see you deal with what I’ve said, not stuff you’ve made up. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/127 "2003-04-08T13:28:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > The UN Charter does NOT have the same authority of law in the U.S. as the Constitution. Jeeze, do some basic reaserch, will ya? If the above was true, the U.S. would no longer be a soverign nation. EVEN if you classify U.S. actions as in violation of treaty- based on the reasoning proposed by RTF above-shakey reasoning at best, and unlikely to convince many people- A Soverign Nation always has the option of breaking a treaty and remaining a soverign nation. Jimminy Christmas, this is 101 level stuff here, very basic! I mean, have you got any clue as to how the real world works? How old are you, anyway? I’m in my 50th year, thanks. No, the UN Charter doesn’t have the same authority of law in the US as the Constitution does. And while I think the Bush administration has been _duplicitous_ with the American people in the manner it’s gotten us involved in this conflict, I don’t think it’s violated _U.S. law_. I think it’s violated _international law_, which is a whole different business. And yeah, with international law, there’s no definitive authority, which is why the fragile consensus that it relies on is crucial to its viability. Sure, we can flout it if we want to, but if we sufficiently disregard what international norms there are, then we are falling back on ‘might makes right’. That’s fine, as long as we’re willing to live with the consequences. One aspect of international law that we regard as important are those standards (such as the Geneva Convention) for treatment of prisoners of war. Occasionally in conflicts like these, our soldiers will fall into the hands of an enemy. If we heed the standards of international law, then we have the moral high ground if enemies mistreat our soldiers, and we are in better position to convince other nations to join us in pressuring our opponent to obey the recognized standards. But if we flout international law, then there’s no reason for our opponent to recognize it in its dealings with us. And if our captured soldiers get strung up by their nutsacks, or are missing various body parts when they’re finally freed, then that’s just the shit that happens in war. But it might make military recruitment more of a challenge, after awhile. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/128 "2003-04-08T13:31:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > So you’re saying that what should determine whether we go to war is the level of popular support for the war, once it’s underway? > > To implement your theory, all we need is a good time machine. No, I’m simply following your premise to its logical conclusion: that in a true democracy, the sovereign will of the people should be the guiding force in any decision regarding the country. And, as [polls](http://gallup.com/subscription/?m=f&c_id=13249) show, the will of the people in the days and weeks prior to the beginning of the war was to go to war. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/129 "2003-04-08T13:36:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SPOOFE \* > \*\*Bad analogy, DTC. Here’s a better one: Let’s say you’re a cop, part of a large group of many police. Part of your job is to watch people and make sure they don’t commit any crimes… and if you catch somebody committing a crime, you’re to call for backup. \*\* To complete the analogy, you see crimes being committed all over the place: muggings, rapes, burglaries. You do nothing. Then a guy you’ve had bad blood with in the past commits a crime - and all of a sudden, you’re out there with your billy club. You whack the guy, put the handcuffs on him, bring him in, and book him. Nah, I wouldn’t respect a cop like that either, no matter how much of a stinker the criminal in question was. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/130 "2003-04-08T13:46:04Z")
Oh bullshit you wouldn’t RTF, you do. We all know that huge numbers of crimes go unpunished, that dosen’t change the situation of those criminals who are caught, and we respect cops in general. The entire “But what about North Korea or Israel or fill-in-the-blank is doing XXX” is the biggest red herring used by the anti war folks. Even if it’s all true, the fact is that Saddam was violating that International Law of which you are so fond, RT, and needed to be dealt with. It’s immaterial what other countries may or may not be doing. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/131 "2003-04-08T13:52:13Z")
We are NOT the fucking COPS!!! ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/132 "2003-04-08T13:59:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sauron \* > No, I’m simply following your premise to its logical conclusion: that in a true democracy, the sovereign will of the people should be the guiding force in any decision regarding the country. How’s that? You’re saying that the will of the people _as of now_ should determine what decision we made _last month_. Like I said, fire up the time machine. > [@](#): > > And, as [polls](http://gallup.com/subscription/?m=f&c_id=13249) show, the will of the people in the days and weeks prior to the beginning of the war was to go to war. \*\* “Days and weeks”? That’s an interesting way of describing your cite. You might also want to read its text, as well as the number you like. But that’s all chaff in the wind since, you missed my point. Which was that the people need to be made aware of the reasons for and aims of a proposed war. What we have from the executive branch is a shifting mosaic of reasons and aims. The American people are only now hearing about the full Wolfowitzian grand design. A bit late, don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/133 "2003-04-08T14:03:00Z")
I already know, **Weirddave** , that you don’t have a problem with the concept of the US being the sole arbiter of international law. Other people (me for one) _do_ have a problem with that. For one thing, it fucks up the legitimacy of international law. And to an outside observer, it just looks like the PNAC is actually running the US, and your strings are just being jerked by a bunch of unelected right-wing fruit cakes. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/134 "2003-04-08T14:18:57Z")
As elfje has already said, it does indeed look like pesticides: > **[MSNBC News - Breaking News and News Today | Latest News](https://www.msnbc.com/)** > > MSNBC breaking news and the latest news for today. Get daily news from local news reporters and world news updates with live audio & video from our team. I know it’d be very reassuring and reaffirming to find some evidence of wmd, but perhaps it’d be a good idea to wait until there’s actually a confirmed find before the party starts. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/135 "2003-04-08T14:19:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > \*\*Oh bullshit you wouldn’t RTF, you do. We all know that huge numbers of crimes go unpunished, that dosen’t change the situation of those criminals who are caught, and we respect cops in general. Huge numbers of crimes go unpunished, _because we don’t know who committed them, or can’t prove it_. But cops who selectively enforce laws that are broken in front of their eyes - nobody respects them. > [@](#): > > The entire “But what about North Korea or Israel or fill-in-the-blank is doing XXX” is the biggest red herring used by the anti war folks. Even if it’s all true, the fact is that Saddam was violating that International Law of which you are so fond, RT, and needed to be dealt with. It’s immaterial what other countries may or may not be doing. _Why_ is it immaterial? Just because you say it is, doesn’t cut it, Dave. And in the same vein, it’s only your (and Bush’s) say-so that he ‘needed to be dealt with’. We haven’t exactly defined what ‘needs to be dealt with’ and what can be put off to another day. I think what other nations are doing or not doing is a very relevant factor in determining who needs to be dealt with. To go back to Analogy City, if your cop sees a breaking-and-entering and a knifing at the same time, which ‘needs to be dealt with’? ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/136 "2003-04-08T14:26:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > How’s that? You’re saying that the will of the people _as of now_ should determine what decision we made _last month_. No I’m not. The will of the people _at the time_, as described by the poll I linked, was to go to war. That was your original premise – that we should be governed by the will of the people. You’re being intentionally disingenuous if you say that a majority of American people, as indicated by polls, did not support waging war (or at least using force) against Iraq. See [here](http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=173) and [here](http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=170). Granted, there were qualifiers on the opinions expressed in those polls, but the fact remains – a majority of Americans supported using force against Iraq in January, well before hostilities started. So let’s dispense with this “time-machine” crap, shall we? > [@](#): > > You might also want to read its text, as well as the number you like. You might want to avoid knee-jerk reactions to refutations of your precious point. I don’t support the reasons for going to war. I’m simply pointing out the fallacy in your earlier thinking. If the will of the people is sovereign, as you opined, and a majority of people want to go to war (regardless of the reason) then the country would go to war. Actually, if the will of the people was sovereign, we might very well be in a war with France at the moment, judging by some of the vitriol that was flung a few weeks ago. > [@](#): > > But that’s all chaff in the wind since, you missed my point. Which was that the people need to be made aware of the reasons for and aims of a proposed war. What we have from the executive branch is a shifting mosaic of reasons and aims. The American people are only now hearing about the full Wolfowitzian grand design. A bit late, don’t you think? I disagree with the methods used by the administration to justify going to war. However, I’m not convinced that the entire population of our country needs to know everything our leaders know. Since we’re not a true democracy, but a republic, we allow the leaders to make these decisions for us. I believe Bush and company were determined to go to war, regardless of what was found or not found. It is my hope that they have rock-solid evidence and sound logical reasoning for that decision. Thus far I haven’t seen it. ---
**Author:** ![Mandelstam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Mandelstam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandelstam)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/137 "2003-04-08T14:50:38Z")
**Weirddave** : _"“I’ve said that you screaming that “we’ve created thousands of new terrorists!!” is nothing more than hysterical, the-sky-is-falling bullshit and have given you the chance to back up your claims with facts.”_ Actually there was an article in the \*New York Times \* a few weeks back in which the CIA was said to have reported a dramatic upsurge of Al Qaeda recruitment since the start of the war. Given that all over the Muslim world there have been mass protests, and that some have even been eager to join the war effort (despite no love lost for Saddam), that’s not a very contentious claim. In fact, last I heard, more than 50% of Americans believe that the war will increase the threat of terrorism. I can’t post that _Times_ article for you b/c they get to a pay-only feature after one week, but I’d say this one’s a no-brainer. As to this issue of illegality: what **RT** said. It’s from the vantage of international law that the war is dubious. There are, of course, international lawyers, particularly on behalf of the Blair government, who’ve argued for its legitimacy based on tortuous readings of the import of prior UN resolutions. But it’s pretty flimsy. Basically the US/UK acted on their own, according to Bush’s preemptive doctrine, and without having convinced the world of any imminent threat. The pity is there were several compromises on the table by that point: but hot weather was coming and, just as important, Bush doesn’t care about how he’s perceived in the rest of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/138 "2003-04-08T14:57:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mandelstam \* … Bush doesn’t care about how he’s perceived in the rest of the world. I think this is the one overriding factor driving this whole shooting match. In the past I’ve heard people say “We need somebody in the White House who makes up his own mind and doesn’t care what anybody else says.” Well, they got their wish. I don’t want the U.S. basing its foreign policy on the whims of a rabbit farmer in East Eurostania. In that sense, Bush’s determination and drive is refreshing. But I have serious reservations about the impact these events will have on U.S. diplomatic relations for years to come. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/139 "2003-04-08T15:38:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > \*\* > _Why_ is it immaterial? Just because you say it is, doesn’t cut it, Dave. And in the same vein, it’s only your (and Bush’s) say-so that he ‘needed to be dealt with’. We haven’t exactly defined what ‘needs to be dealt with’ and what can be put off to another day. > > I think what other nations are doing or not doing is a very relevant factor in determining who needs to be dealt with. To go back to Analogy City, if your cop sees a breaking-and-entering and a knifing at the same time, which ‘needs to be dealt with’? \*\* It’s not immaterial if what you are arguing is consistancy in U.S. foreign policy. If that’s what you want to talk about, thate are a multitude of threads on just that topic. It is immaterial when the topic is “The war with Iraq”. What North Korea is or isn’t doing has absolutely no bearing on that. To continue with your analogy, say the cop deals with one of the criminals by arresting him. Are you now claiming that the criminal arrested is somehow not guilty and shouldn’t be prosecuted simply because another crime was being committed at the same time? That’s the arguement that you’re making, and it dosen’t hold water. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111/140 "2003-04-08T15:41:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > \*\*I already know, **Weirddave** , that you don’t have a problem with the concept of the US being the sole arbiter of international law. > > Other people (me for one) _do_ have a problem with that. > > For one thing, it fucks up the legitimacy of international law. > > \*\* Nice straw man, but the fact is that the U.S. is not acting unilateraly. Over 40 countries support the war, including your own. Don’t like it? Fine, vote for someone else in your next elections. Until that point, the democratically elected government of your own country supports this war, along with dozens of others. That’s a far cry from the U.S. being “The sole arbiter of international law”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-and-were-ready-to-fire-neener-neener-neener/167111.md?page=8)