# WMD FOUND! Woooohooooooooo! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 17, 2004, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-woooohooooooooo/245616 "2004-05-17T15:42:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-woooohooooooooo/245616/81 "2004-05-19T01:53:46Z")
Because President Bush has advisors that serve as rudders as to what will be blatantly stupid and what will be marginally believable by those prone to ignorance, I don’t think that he will out and out claim that this shell is evidence of WMD. Instead, he (and representatives of his administration) will mention the (possible) sarin and the mustard gas over and over until it begins to creep into the psyche of the gullible as _The Missing Evidence._ People who adore President Bush will begin to name their newborn daughters _Sarin._ All of this is speculation based on observation. I think that’s still allowed here. One of the first bits of information that I heard about sarin is that it is 26 times more powerful than cyanide. This shell must have been really old. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-woooohooooooooo/245616/82 "2004-05-19T01:56:01Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > More on the Shell. > > [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120268,00.html](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120268,00.html) > I thought “classic” symptoms ususally included death. I know people that would huff this shit for fun. Useful information on sarin shells [here](http://www.command-post.org/2_archives/012332.html) Key paragraphs are these: "A binary artillery shell is projected from an artillery piece with an acceleration of over 100g, and spins at thousands of RPM. It also gets very hot, from the flame of the propellant, but also from air friction. This is quite enough to break the membrane separating the two chemicals, and mix them very thoroughly indeed. By the time the shell reaches the target, the chemical reaction is complete, and a small bursting charge shatters the shell and spreads the fog of droplets over a wide area. If the artillery shell is (accidentally or deliberately) detonated without being fired from an artillery piece, there is very little mixing of the chemicals. Although the chemicals are not totally safe (I wouldn’t drink them, for example), the amount of Sarin produced would be very small, and chemical wounds would be minor and easily treatable." Basically a binary shell needs heat and mixing for the chemicals to achieve potency. Those conditions weren’t met, so the result of the bursting charge wasn’t fatal. It would be unwise to conclude from this that sarin isn’t scary stuff. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-woooohooooooooo/245616/83 "2004-05-19T03:28:40Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > Useful information on sarin shells > [here](http://www.command-post.org/2_archives/012332.html) > > Key paragraphs are these: > > "A binary artillery shell is projected from an artillery piece with an acceleration of over 100g, and spins at thousands of RPM. It also gets very hot, from the flame of the propellant, but also from air friction. This is quite enough to break the membrane separating the two chemicals, and mix them very thoroughly indeed. By the time the shell reaches the target, the chemical reaction is complete, and a small bursting charge shatters the shell and spreads the fog of droplets over a wide area. > > If the artillery shell is (accidentally or deliberately) detonated without being fired from an artillery piece, there is very little mixing of the chemicals. Although the chemicals are not totally safe (I wouldn’t drink them, for example), the amount of Sarin produced would be very small, and chemical wounds would be minor and easily treatable." > Basically a binary shell needs heat and mixing for the chemicals to achieve potency. Those conditions weren’t met, so the result of the bursting charge wasn’t fatal. It would be unwise to conclude from this that sarin isn’t scary stuff. So, IED via idiot, yes? A pro would’ve known either to use something else or to rig it so that the necessary preconditions for effectiveness were met. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-woooohooooooooo/245616/84 "2004-05-19T03:39:41Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > If you denounce POTUS actions simply because he’s not of your Party you are a hypocrite I think he very clearly stated that that’s **not** what he’s doing. > [@](#): > > if you denounce POTUS actions simply because you don’t understand them you are an idiot. And I see no evidence that that’s what he’s doing. Correct me if I’m wrong but are you basically just trying to say that anyone that doesn’t support Bush’s actions is either an idiot or a hypocrite? ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-woooohooooooooo/245616/85 "2004-05-19T04:28:40Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > So, IED via idiot, yes? > A pro would’ve known either to use something else or to rig it so that the necessary preconditions for effectiveness were met. Um, no one is even sure that the people who used the shell knew what it was. It was unmarked and looked like a normal shell. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-woooohooooooooo/245616/86 "2004-05-19T05:01:57Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > Um, no one is even sure that the people who used the shell knew what it was. It was unmarked and looked like a normal shell. That’d be because it probably _was_ a normal shell: > [@](#): > > The Iraqis have adapted a number of conventional munitions for the delivery of chemical agents (figure 11). An example is the Spanish-made 250-kg white phosporus bomb used to deliver mustard and nerve agents. The bombs were purchased without the fill and were subsequently filled with the CW agents. the same holds true for other munitions; none of those purchased were originally designed for CW agents. In addition to 250- and 500-kg aerial bombs, the Iraqis have filled and used 90-mm air-to-ground rockets; 82- and 120-mm mortar rounds; various artillery projectiles; and 122-mm artillery rockets, which had agent-filled plastic containers in the warheads. The potential also exists for the filling of submunition-type warheads and bombs [FAS 1990](http://www.fas.org/irp/gulf/intel/971030/971030_1620s464_dst_001.html) ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-woooohooooooooo/245616/87 "2004-05-19T05:26:16Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Correct me if I’m wrong but are you basically just trying to say that anyone that doesn’t support Bush’s actions is either an idiot or a hypocrite? Correction, You’re wrong. Not “anyone that doesn’t support Bush’s actions is either an idiot or a hypocrite”. I was talking strictly about **World Eater** , **samclem** and **rjung** , that’s all… Oh yeah, **SimonX** , too. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-woooohooooooooo/245616/88 "2004-05-19T14:13:55Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > If you denounce POTUS actions simply because he’s not of your Party you are a hypocrite; if you denounce POTUS actions simply because you don’t understand them you are an idiot. Lucky I’m denouncing him for other reasons. Go run along and play, the adults are having a conversation here. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-woooohooooooooo/245616/89 "2004-05-19T14:17:38Z")
I don’t think the contents of the shell were known. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-woooohooooooooo/245616/90 "2004-05-19T14:44:33Z")
I haven’t noticed much celebration by the Bushies, which is good. It isn’t enough to make a grand sweeping claim of WMDs. Nevertheless, I am a bit skeptical that there was _just one_ shell filled with sarin, kept under a bed or something. And sarin can be quite deadly: see [here](http://www.drumbeat.mlaterz.net/October%202002/Sarin%20warhead%20could%20kill%20thousands%20100302a.htm) In an attack on Tel Aviv, a city of several hundred thousands, there could be almost 60000 casualties from a single warhead. This is only three liters or so, granted, but again I find it hard to believe that that’s all they had. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-woooohooooooooo/245616/91 "2004-05-19T14:48:02Z")
elucidator, I think that you are overlooking a vitally important point. See, Clinton got a blowjob and was playing hide and seek with a cigar. Therefore, we should support Bush (or something). ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-woooohooooooooo/245616/92 "2004-05-19T15:00:13Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > I haven’t noticed much celebration by the Bushies, which is good. It isn’t enough to make a grand sweeping claim of WMDs. Well I must admit I’m a bit surprised myself. I’ll still give the focus groups a few more days though. > [@](#): > > Nevertheless, I am a bit skeptical that there was _just one_ shell filled with sarin, kept under a bed or something. I wouldn’t be surprised if there are more floating around out there. It is inevitable that some others will eventually turn up, but I don’t think the insurgents know what they are. > [@](#): > > And sarin can be quite deadly: see [here](http://www.drumbeat.mlaterz.net/October%202002/Sarin%20warhead%20could%20kill%20thousands%20100302a.htm) > > In an attack on Tel Aviv, a city of several hundred thousands, there could be almost 60000 casualties from a single warhead. This is only three liters or so, granted, but again I find it hard to believe that that’s all they had. No disagreement here. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-woooohooooooooo/245616/93 "2004-05-19T15:23:50Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Correction, You’re wrong. Not “anyone that doesn’t support Bush’s actions is either an idiot or a hypocrite”. I was talking strictly about **World Eater** , **samclem** and **rjung** , that’s all… Oh yeah, **SimonX** , too. Hey, Dimwit, how bout you lay out your case? I’m a registered Republican and a GOPTeamLeader. Hell, I even voted for GWB! I understand what Bush Admin’s doing and done, (it’s aboslutely horriffic and utterly unAmerican). So, based on the criteria you provided, I’m neither a hypocrite nor an idiot. You however’re a :wally ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-woooohooooooooo/245616/94 "2004-05-19T15:30:30Z")
FTR, I’d always suspected, no, _expected_ that Hussien had at least _some_ WMDs. What was lacking however, was a compelling national interest for the US to invade Iraq that outweighed the costs of doing so _how_ it was done. I’s all for deposing Hussein. I just didn’t think that the Admin was going about it in a responsible way. I consider the Admin guilty of treasonously unAmerican activity, in that they intentionally set about to thwart the right of the American electorate to deny consent to the government through misrepresentation etc. It was obvious that the Admin was feeding us bullshit from the beginning. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-woooohooooooooo/245616/95 "2004-05-19T16:12:28Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > FTR, I’d always suspected, no, _expected_ that Hussien had at least _some_ WMDs. > What was lacking however, was a compelling national interest for the US to invade Iraq that outweighed the costs of doing so _how_ it was done. > I’s all for deposing Hussein. I just didn’t think that the Admin was going about it in a responsible way. > I consider the Admin guilty of treasonously unAmerican activity, in that they intentionally set about to thwart the right of the American electorate to deny consent to the government through misrepresentation etc. > > It was obvious that the Admin was feeding us bullshit from the beginning. I was actually pro Bush when he was elected, but like you have taken a look at the state of affairs, and changed my mind. I’m not Dem or Rep, more, the opposite of the guy currently in office. I can’t stand any of those fuckers. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-woooohooooooooo/245616/96 "2004-05-19T16:29:58Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Lucky I’m denouncing him for other reasons. What other reasons? You said yourself, > [@](#): > > Had Clinton invaded Iraq in the same flimsy reasons Bush did, I’d be calling for his head instead. Clearly, your problem is that the reasons for invasion were “flimsy”. Then you say that if Clinton used such “flimsy” reasons, you’d be against him, too. You took a line that partisanship is irrelevant, while convincing a whole US population is. Well, first, convincing a whole population is an impossibility, for there will always be great number of people crying fraud, especially in this country. Second, don’t you think that when POTUS resorts to urgent measures on international arena it might be incumbent on you, as a citizen, to exert your mind and try to understand why is he doing that? Clearly, there might be reasons that would require POTUS to act speedily and decisively without securing an approval of every last yokel beforehand. If you don’t think so, you are right there with **rjung** , who insisted that in theory taking Hitler out pre-emptively would be wrong without following all the proper procedures. If all you do is shout, “It’s wrong because I don’t understand it!”, you sound like an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-woooohooooooooo/245616/97 "2004-05-19T16:34:51Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > I’m a registered Republican and a GOPTeamLeader. How does that make you any smarter? ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-woooohooooooooo/245616/98 "2004-05-19T16:39:25Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Second, don’t you thipgnk that when POTUS resorts to urgent measures on international arena it might be incumbent on you, as a citizen, to exert your mind and try to understand why is he doing that? See, now I thought the entire administration had made it rather clear that one big honkin’ reason for Operation Iraqi Freedom was to remove Saddam from both his power and his WMDs. ::looks around for WMDs:: Oh, hm? What we really meant was WMD programs? ::looks around for WMD programs:: Hmm, what’s that? We’re supposed to be looking for evidence of potential to make WMDs? ::looks around for evidence of potential to make WMDs:: Oh, say what? Now it’s WMD program plans? ::looks around for WMD program plans:: Eh, whazzat? WMD intent? Er… > [@](#): > > Clearly, there might be reasons that would require POTUS to act speedily and decisively without securing an approval of every last yokel beforehand. Those reasons sure don’t look as clear as they did 15 months ago (and that clarity depending on whom you believe), and folks are up and saying so, including Sec. Powell. Meanwhile we’ve fuckall evidence that Saddam had designs on anything with W, M and D in it other than practicing his alphabet. > [@](#): > > If you don’t think so, you are right there with **rjung** , who insisted that in theory taking Hitler out pre-emptively would be wrong without following all the proper procedures. Hmm, taking someone out before they’ve done anything worth taking 'em out for. Y’know, and I thought _Minority Report_ was just a movie. > [@](#): > > If all you do is shout, “It’s wrong because I don’t understand it!”, you sound like an idiot. Oh, you silly kettle… ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-woooohooooooooo/245616/99 "2004-05-19T16:44:53Z")
New Iskander, A search of the Iraq war threads for the past year will yield a rich and varied mosaic of intelligent people that have thought this through and have reached a conclusion that differs from yours. I see that you are a member, so you may want to use the search function and spend a little time reading. You seem to basically be saying over and over and over again that people that disagree with you are inherently stupid. I submit that it is possible for people to look at the same information and reach different conclusions and for both of them to have done so rationally and intelligently (not that I am accusing you of being either rational or intelligent, mind). This is especially true in matters political, as at the end of the day it isn’t something for which there is a factual answer for the most part. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-woooohooooooooo/245616/100 "2004-05-19T17:07:32Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > What other reasons? You said yourself, Clearly, your problem is that the reasons for invasion were “flimsy”. Then you say that if Clinton used such “flimsy” reasons, you’d be against him, too. You took a line that partisanship is irrelevant, while convincing a whole US population is. Please point out where I stated that convincing the entire country of a course of action is neccessary before undertaking it. > [@](#): > > Well, first, convincing a whole population is an impossibility, for there will always be great number of people crying fraud, especially in this country. With regards to Iraq, the people calling fraud have been pretty much correct. Besides, what are we supposed to do? Blindly follow our “Dear leader”, no questions asked? > [@](#): > > Second, don’t you think that when POTUS resorts to urgent measures on international arena it might be incumbent on you, as a citizen, to exert your mind and try to understand why is he doing that? I understood why we invaded Iraq, I just thought it was a stupid course of action. My belief is that invading Iraq will cause more problems in the long run, then it will solve. We’re giving the world more reasons to hate us. The world was with us on going into Afghanistan, where if you remember OBL was located. Hunting down the people that attacked us is what we should be focusing on 100%, instead we’re squandering our resources, good will, and global respect. Bush went into Iraq because he thought quickly kicking the shit out of someone would make us look badass. All the terrorists would run away in fear, because if we hit the US again, they’ll come beat us up like they did Iraq. Well it didn’t work out the way he hoped. This will be a long messy engagement that will breed a new generation of terrorists, cost us hundreds of millions, and put a big dent in our image. The worst part is we can’t even get out now, because “they’ll win” if we do. > [@](#): > > Clearly, there might be reasons that would require POTUS to act speedily and decisively without securing an approval of every last yokel beforehand. Sure, you don’t see anyone bitching about Afghanistan do you? We were in 4 weeks after 9/11? If you possess even a granule of common sense, you realize there are times when those “reasons” are fucking stupid, don’t make any sense, or are completely counter productive. > [@](#): > > If you don’t think so, you are right there with **rjung** , who insisted that in theory taking Hitler out pre-emptively would be wrong without following all the proper procedures. I don’t give a shit about strawman Hitler comparisons, I give a shit about the reality of the world we live in today. Join us sometime. > [@](#): > > If all you do is shout, “It’s wrong because I don’t understand it!”, you sound like an idiot. And if all you do is shout “If all you do is shout, “It’s wrong because I don’t understand it!”, you sound like an idiot”, you sound like an idiot as well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-woooohooooooooo/245616.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-found-woooohooooooooo/245616.md?page=6)