# WMD in Iraq? Who is kidding whom? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 29, 2004, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-in-iraq-who-is-kidding-whom/262072 "2004-08-29T08:05:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-in-iraq-who-is-kidding-whom/262072/21 "2004-08-29T18:07:26Z")
So, to sumarise, no-one disagrees that Bush lied, it’s just a matter of debate as to what he lied about? ---
**Author:** ![PussyCow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/22d042/32.png) [@PussyCow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PussyCow)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-in-iraq-who-is-kidding-whom/262072/22 "2004-08-29T18:08:50Z")
I think a lot of the other nations _did not_ think Hussein had these WMDs. That is why the weapons inspectors were telling Bush NOT to attack. I also think Bush thought there probably were WMDs (I did. Why would Hussein be teasing the weapons inspectors like that if there weren’t?) However, now I think the situation was more complex than I can understand and the weapons inspectors knew something more, but Bush refused to listen. There was a chance there were WMDs, Bush wanted to go to war (for whatever reasons), so he did. I mean, we have not found any of these weapons, nor have we found a realistic place to construct these weapons. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-in-iraq-who-is-kidding-whom/262072/23 "2004-08-29T19:16:45Z")
Hey, now…go easy on our Intel guys… Correct me if I’m mis-remembering events, but I seem to recall in the early hours of 9/11, the President being spirited around the skies of the midwest for several hours to protect him from a plot on his life which was evidently uncovered within minutes of the Twin Towers/Pentagon attacks. Funny that such a crackerjack team of intelligence experts could uncover an attempt on the President on such short notice, but cannot, after, what, 3+ years? find the perpetrator of the attack. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-in-iraq-who-is-kidding-whom/262072/24 "2004-08-29T19:27:18Z")
**xtisme** : [looking at these quotes… (and others)](http://www.ceip.org/files/projects/npp/resources/iraqintell/adminquoteshtml.htm) … it seems as if, the best we can say is that they lied about their level of certainty. All their remarks about ‘no doubt’ would imply that their intel was 100 percent solid and that there was no possible room for debate. If that wasn’t the case, they lied to the nation. Or perhaps we could say that they just ‘misled’ us as to how certain they were… Either that or they’re just folks who’ll believe whatever they want to believe. But, honestly, when Rumsfeld says that we know the specific location of weapons… Admittedly, maybe the administration had no idea that what they were telling us was bull, but that would make them incompetent. It is an ominous decision to guess at whether our administration is mendacious or just unable to do their jobs. (bolding mine in all cases) > [@](#): > > “Simply stated, **there is no doubt** that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction.” -Vice President Cheney > Veterans of Foreign Wars 103 rd National Convention > August 26, 2002 > [@](#): > > “ **There is no doubt that he has chemical weapons stocks…** With respect to biological weapons, we are confident that he has some stocks of those weapons and he is probably continuing to try to develop more… With respect to nuclear weapons, we are quite confident that he continues to try to pursue the technology that would allow him to develop a nuclear weapon… So there’s no question that he has these weapons, but even more importantly, he is striving to do even more, to get even more.” -Secretary Powell > FOX News Sunday Interview with Tony Snow > September 8, 2002 > [@](#): > > “And one of the reasons it’s of concern to him is we know about a particular shipment --we have intercepted that --we don’t know what else, what other avenues he may be taking out there, what he may have already acquired… So we have to deal with these bits and pieces and try to put them together into a mosaic to understand what’s going on. But we do know with absolute certainty that he is using his procurement system to acquire the equipment he needs in order to enrich uranium to build a nuclear weapon.”-Vice President Cheney > NBC Meet the Press with Tim Russert > September 8, 2002 > [@](#): > > “Iraq continues to conceal quantities, vast quantities, of highly lethal material and weapons to deliver it. They could kill thousands upon thousands of men, women and children if Saddam Hussein decides to use these against those men, women and children, or, just as frightening, to provide them to others who might use such weapons.”-Secretary Powell > Washington, DC > January 27, 2003 > [@](#): > > “Indeed the Iraqi regime is going to great lengths to conceal its weapons of mass destruction. It has removed material from sites it knew were likely to be inspected. The regime also has an active program of coaching scientists before they talk to inspectors and only permits interviews when minders are present. On top of that, thousands of pages of sensitive weapons-related documents have been found in private homes…”-Secretary Powell > “We Will Not Shrink From War” > Wall Street Journal > February 3, 2003 > [@](#): > > “Saddam Hussein has longstanding, direct and continuing ties to terrorist networks. Senior members of Iraqi intelligence and al Qaeda have met at least eight times since the early 1990s. Iraq has sent bomb-making and document forgery experts to work with al Qaeda. Iraq has also provided al Qaeda with chemical and biological weapons training. And an al Qaeda operative was sent to Iraq several times in the late 1990s for help in acquiring poisons and gases. We also know that Iraq is harboring a terrorist network headed by a senior al Qaeda terrorist planner. This network runs a poison and explosive training camp in northeast Iraq, and many of its leaders are known to be in Baghdad.”-President Bush > Radio Address to the Nation > February 8, 2003 > [@](#): > > “Intelligence gathered by this and other governments \*\* leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised\*\*.”-President Bush > Address to the Nation > March 17, 2003 > [@](#): > > “ **There is no doubt that the regime of Saddam Hussein possesses weapons of mass destruction**. As this operation continues, those weapons will be identified, found, along with the people who have produced them and who guard them.” -General Franks > Washington Post > March 23, 2003 And a kicker > [@](#): > > "If you think – let me take that, both pieces – the area in the south and the west and the north that coalition forces control is substantial. It happens not to be the area where weapons of mass destruction were dispersed. **We know where they are. They’re in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat.** -Secretary Rumsfeld > ABC “This Week with George Stephanapolous” > March 30, 2003 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-in-iraq-who-is-kidding-whom/262072/25 "2004-08-29T19:54:04Z")
Someone has implied that this is the “October Surprise”. This could only be the surmise of someone who lacks the required amount of paranoia. In other situations, paranoia is a deficit, in matters of politics, it is a survival skill. We got run out of Fallujah, run out of Hajar, and stand poised to be run out of Baghdad. If we get run out of Iraq altogether, the Bushiviks will declare that we have withdrawn our forces from Iraq because our splendid victory renders them unneccesary. If they hurry, the can get some of them home in time of the Support Our President and Re-Elect Our Heroes Rally. Rallies. There will be several. What’s that you say? They wouldn’t dare? Too blatant a lie, too obvious? Bet me. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-in-iraq-who-is-kidding-whom/262072/26 "2004-08-29T20:16:02Z")
And this just in, from over at Drudge, quoting _Time_… a quote for out times, destined to have a prominent place in the Wisdom of GeeDubya… “…Had we had to do it over again, we would look at the consequences of catastrophic success—being so successful so fast that an enemy that should have surrendered or been done in escaped and lived to fight another day…” “Catastrophic success” Man, thats fuckin’ brilliant! Move over, “Mistakes were made”. “We had to destroy the village in order to save it”? Fuhgedabboutit! “I am not a crook” Not even in the running! “The dog ate my homework”? Not even close! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-in-iraq-who-is-kidding-whom/262072/27 "2004-08-29T20:20:01Z")
The problem with the “honest mistakes happen” theory is that there were numerous sources saying that Iraq did not have any active WMD programs a year ago. The Bush administration quite definitively refuted those claims and said it had conclusive evidence that there were WMD’s already in existance. I personally don’t have access to classfied intelligence material but I assumed that it existed and trusted that the President knew what he was talking about. Instead we found out after the fact that the Bush adminstration never had credible evidence but was relying on wishful thinking and an willful blindness to the facts. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-in-iraq-who-is-kidding-whom/262072/28 "2004-08-29T20:20:23Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And this just in, from over at Drudge, quoting _Time_… a quote for out times, destined to have a prominent place in the Wisdom of GeeDubya… > > “…Had we had to do it over again, we would look at the consequences of catastrophic success—being so successful so fast that an enemy that should have surrendered or been done in escaped and lived to fight another day…” Good thing I didn’t take you up on your bet. Sometimes the spin that comes out of this administration leaves me gobsmacked. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-in-iraq-who-is-kidding-whom/262072/29 "2004-08-29T20:23:59Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > The problem with the “honest mistakes happen” theory is that there were numerous sources saying that Iraq did not have any active WMD programs a year ago. The Bush administration quite definitively refuted those claims and said it had conclusive evidence that there were WMD’s already in existance. I personally don’t have access to classfied intelligence material but I assumed that it existed and trusted that the President knew what he was talking about. Instead we found out after the fact that the Bush adminstration never had credible evidence but was relying on wishful thinking and an willful blindness to the facts. There is something that I vaguely remember… However I don’t have a cite and I’m not sure that I’m remembering correctly. Were there or were there not certain elements in the intelligence community stateside who were apologizing to Bush because they ‘knew’ there were WMD there, they just couldn’t seem to find any evidence that would actually justify such knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-in-iraq-who-is-kidding-whom/262072/30 "2004-08-29T20:24:24Z")
Oh, don’t misunderstand! This isn’t about the ordinary production and deployment of standard issue spin and commonplace mendacity. This is about _poetry_! This is about a deathless phrase that will ring through the ages! “Catastrophic success” I am overcome with awe, I weep… ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-in-iraq-who-is-kidding-whom/262072/31 "2004-08-29T20:42:19Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, don’t misunderstand! This isn’t about the ordinary production and deployment of standard issue spin and commonplace mendacity. This is about _poetry_! This is about a deathless phrase that will ring through the ages! > > “Catastrophic success” I am overcome with awe, I weep… ~grins~ I must admit, I am somewhat envious of whichever speech-writer fed Bush that gem. I wonder what the full poem might have looked like 😉 Storm rages against those who the idea of being Free Brave cowboy stands alone in a new dawn to do battle with the specter of future woe Bin Ladin is smoke on the breeze Sadaam is right over there we go smash him Perfidious beasts go and die when we bomb them; catastrophic success, how dare they They chose to be blown up rather than surrender, but not blown up enough that we win it’s all their fault ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-in-iraq-who-is-kidding-whom/262072/32 "2004-08-29T20:43:27Z")
damnit! hit submit instead of preview. should read “those who have the idea.” ---
**Author:** ![nonpolar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3da27b/32.png) [@nonpolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nonpolar)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-in-iraq-who-is-kidding-whom/262072/33 "2004-08-29T21:32:25Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > … > > “…Had we had to do it over again, we would look at the consequences of catastrophic success—being so successful so fast that an enemy that should have surrendered or been done in escaped and lived to fight another day…” > > " On one hand I hate to see this Administration winning november elections, but on the other they are just hilarious. Never before there was such a colorfull bunch of clowns .I will miss them :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-in-iraq-who-is-kidding-whom/262072/34 "2004-08-29T22:24:47Z")
FinnAgain, you are merely providing cites for what I was implying. I’m well aware of the fact that the administration repeatedly said they KNEW where the weapons were, that they were 100% sure, etc. Again, I’m not disputing this. I’m disputing the ridiculous claim by the OP, and blithely re-asserted several times that the contrary was true…that the administration KNEW that Iraq did NOT have WMD, blah blah blah. I’m sorry, but again, my own take on it is what I said earlier in this thread. > [@'luci](#): > > We got run out of Fallujah, run out of Hajar, and stand poised to be run out of Baghdad. If we get run out of Iraq altogether, the Bushiviks will declare that we have withdrawn our forces from Iraq because our splendid victory renders them unneccesary. If they hurry, the can get some of them home in time of the Support Our President and Re-Elect Our Heroes Rally. Rallies. There will be several. Oh please…do you REALLY think its likely we will be run out of the country or is this merely (as usual for you :)) for effect? I’m guessing the latter. > [@'luci](#): > > What’s that you say? They wouldn’t dare? Too blatant a lie, too obvious? > > Bet me. You are on. Name your stakes. IF the US gets ‘run out’ of Iraq and IF the administration tries to cover this up with the most massive lie yet, you win (and we all lose of course). Otherwise you lose. 🙂 > [@Little Nemo](#): > > The problem with the “honest mistakes happen” theory is that there were numerous sources saying that Iraq did not have any active WMD programs a year ago. The Bush administration quite definitively refuted those claims and said it had conclusive evidence that there were WMD’s already in existance. I personally don’t have access to classfied intelligence material but I assumed that it existed and trusted that the President knew what he was talking about. Instead we found out after the fact that the Bush adminstration never had credible evidence but was relying on wishful thinking and an willful blindness to the facts. Afaik no one is espousing the 'honest mistake happen’ed theory in this thread, so who exactly is this directed at? -XT ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-in-iraq-who-is-kidding-whom/262072/35 "2004-08-29T23:27:47Z")
> [@xtcisme](#): > > …I’m guessing the latter… Tell you truth, I’m not sure myself. Tomlins Dicta: You can’t keep up by trying to be more ridiculous than the facts. I would be surprised, yeah, I guess so. But if they got away with it, I would be panic-stricken. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-in-iraq-who-is-kidding-whom/262072/36 "2004-08-30T01:00:41Z")
> [@PussyCow](#): > > ::chew, chew:: > > Hmmm. > > ::chew, chew:: > > Tastes a lot like my cud. Awwwww… **PussyCow** , you blew it!!! You _should’ve_ said: "Hmmm. ::chew, chew:: Well, I’m sure glad I didn’t step in it" ---
**Author:** ![WoodCM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7bcc69/32.png) [@WoodCM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WoodCM)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-in-iraq-who-is-kidding-whom/262072/37 "2004-08-30T01:03:44Z")
First thing to do is this - destroy the horrible awful phrase ‘weapons of mass destruction’. The usage of this phrase is a massive assault on the usefulness of language - nay, thought itself. How to do this? Tell anyone who uses this phrase that it is a diabolical falsness (or other words to the same effect). Up to you. Wave your hands about, froth at the mouth (actually, this will not help), whateaver. Point is, do something about it at all costs. The evil Blair and (not quite so evil) Bush types of this world have got away with so much by using this obscene terminology, and everyone else seems to use it too! Stop it, stop it now! Tell 'em to stop using this group of words. It will help you know! More power to the pen! ---
**Author:** ![Chata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Chata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chata)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-in-iraq-who-is-kidding-whom/262072/38 "2004-08-30T02:47:35Z")
My neocon friends say Saddam “moved” the WMD to Syra. How does one actually move a whole WMD operation? Please explain! ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-in-iraq-who-is-kidding-whom/262072/39 "2004-08-30T02:51:13Z")
You sure as hell don’t tell U-Haul that’s why you’re renting the trucks… ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-in-iraq-who-is-kidding-whom/262072/40 "2004-08-30T03:09:39Z")
You move the product, not the operations. I suppose its possible that some of the WMD (assuming there were any substantial stores of them since the mid-90’s) were shipped out of the country just prior to the war. I remember reading something about ‘special’ Iraqi troops stationed on the boarder just prior to the conflict, but I don’t know if any of that was ever substantiated. -XT [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-in-iraq-who-is-kidding-whom/262072.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wmd-in-iraq-who-is-kidding-whom/262072.md?page=3)