# Wnat killed musical?? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 15, 2001, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wnat-killed-musical/50087 "2001-01-15T04:46:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wnat-killed-musical/50087/1 "2001-01-15T04:46:37Z")
Watching Grease the other day on TBS it occured to me that I can’t recall another sucessful muscial since that movie I can recall only a few others made after Grease (e.g. “Can’t Stop the Music.”) and they were all bombs. What killed musicals? When was the last time a large scale musical was released in the USA (even if a bomb)? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wnat-killed-musical/50087/2 "2001-01-15T04:53:13Z")
Well, Rent did pretty well, or are you restricting yourself to movie musicals? ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wnat-killed-musical/50087/3 "2001-01-15T04:57:22Z")
In addition I was referring to Musicals in Movies Also can one of the mods fix the post so it reads What not wnat ---
**Author:** ![nowalls99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e68b1a/32.png) [@nowalls99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nowalls99)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wnat-killed-musical/50087/4 "2001-01-15T05:00:17Z")
South Park: Bigger, Longer, Uncut could be considered a musical, and while all the critic were too anal to give it good reviews, it was a good movie. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wnat-killed-musical/50087/5 "2001-01-15T05:00:45Z")
It seems that musicals have mostly been relegated to cartoons. In the meantime, go and see [Dancer in the Dark](http://us.imdb.com/Title?0168629) with Bjork, Catherine Deneuve and David Morse. A very, very powerful film. If you haven’t already, DON’T read anything about the film. Just watch it, let the plot unfold for itself (no twists per se, but the film does such a good job telling the story. IMHO it is better to go into it without any plot-expectations.) Just know that though it is a musical, it is not a ‘feel-good’ movie. ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wnat-killed-musical/50087/6 "2001-01-15T05:04:34Z")
Newsies was released in 1992, it was a musical. Didn’t do so well, though. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wnat-killed-musical/50087/7 "2001-01-15T05:14:25Z")
They also redid Annie a few years ago. I think it was made for TV, though. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wnat-killed-musical/50087/8 "2001-01-15T07:21:34Z")
In theater, the high prices killed the musical. There were some exceptions, such as _The Lion King_ For TV/Movies, musicals were supplanted by action, cartoons and romance films, which are inundated with singable songs. ---
**Author:** ![avacado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47774/32.png) [@avacado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/avacado)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wnat-killed-musical/50087/9 "2001-01-15T08:43:29Z")
but, but, but what about _The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas_? ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wnat-killed-musical/50087/10 "2001-01-15T14:36:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by nowalls99 \* > \*\*South Park: Bigger, Longer, Uncut could be considered a musical, and while all the critic were too anal to give it good reviews . . . \*\* Ah, what short memories we have. When the SP movie came out, the critical reaction was _so_ surprisingly good that print ads for the movie altered the tag line from simply “Uh-Oh” to “Uh-Oh . . . The Critics Like It!” For example, although Ebert was ambiguous about the ultimate goal of the film, he said, “The year’s most slashing political commentary is not in the new films by Oliver Stone, David Lynch or John Sayles, but in an animated comedy about obscenity .” The _New York Times_ said, “The rock-bottom reality of third-grade humor versus adult sanctimony is the source of many of the laughs in “South Park: Bigger, Longer and Uncut,” the very funny, extremely obscene movie spinoff from the popular animated Comedy Central series. With eerily perfect timing, “South Park” addresses the current national debate about the Motion Picture Association of America’s movie ratings and President Clinton’s call for exhibitors to enforce them vigorously . . . Not to become ponderous (after all, it’s only a movie), but the “South Park” phenomenon cannily zeroes in on some essential contradictions of American popular culture.” ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wnat-killed-musical/50087/11 "2001-01-15T14:40:28Z")
I’d offer “All That Jazz” as an example of a movie musical. While not one in the strict sense, musical numbers DID carry a portion of the film. It was strictly reality-based ( Opposed to say, “Brigadoon”…). IMHO, it was sheer genious in every area. It also did good business. Cartooniverse ---
**Author:** ![AWB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@AWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AWB)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wnat-killed-musical/50087/12 "2001-01-15T14:52:55Z")
How 'bout “Evita”? Wasn’t it successful? ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wnat-killed-musical/50087/13 "2001-01-15T16:25:00Z")
Let’s not lose sight of bad music killing the musical. Most movie musicals have one or two good tunes. The rest are often little more than filler. I offer any Elvis Presley movie ever made as proof. By contrast, you can throw a greatest hits soundtrack together with pretty much all good (or at least proven) songs that help carry the story and you don’t have to go to the huge expense of mounting a production number, much less finding talented actors who can also sing and dance. Take a look at the Disney franchise. They kept cranking out musical cartoons every few years, but after 101 Dalmations in the 60s, they had terrible scores. As soon as Disney got a first-class songwriting team together to do The Little Mermaid, voila, the cartoon musical was reborn. Also, beginning in the 60s, the whole thrust of movies went more to a more “real” or “natural” approach, which obviously plays against having the characters break into song and dance numbers at various times in the film. ---
**Author:** ![johnson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@johnson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnson)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wnat-killed-musical/50087/14 "2001-01-15T16:44:35Z")
> [@](#): > > …which obviously plays against having the characters break into song and dance numbers at various times in the film. Even though I know it’s a movie, I can’t help but think the following two thoughts every time song and dance break out: [ul][li]no one ever actually does that; and[/li][li]how does everyone know the words?[/ul][/li]I’m not usually such a killjoy–and I do marginally enjoy some of them… ---
**Author:** ![mack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mack)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wnat-killed-musical/50087/15 "2001-01-15T18:07:52Z")
\*\*Little Shop of Horrors ('86)\*\*was pretty successful. **The Blues Brothers ('80) \*\* - a classic. Maybe not technically a musical, but it did have musical numbers. \*\* Fame ('80)** was a big hit. But those are basically within the same basic time frame. I guess doing a (non-cartoon) musical is more daring than a lot of producers and studios are willing to be these days. I would think the tough part about making a movie musical now is that since it hasn’t been done in so long, the cinematic musical infrastructure (staging, choreography, lighting, costumes, etc.)is pretty much gone. You’d have to get a rap video director to do it (hey I’m getting an idea…) ---
**Author:** ![evilhanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba8739/32.png) [@evilhanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/evilhanz)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wnat-killed-musical/50087/16 "2001-01-15T18:57:58Z")
I always thought that “Paint Your Wagons” (US 1969) was the Grim Reaper of standard Hollywood musicals. (It also killed the Western genre for a number of years). Although I have not seen it, the film is purportedly horrible. I mean, Lee Marvin and Clint Eastwood singing in a Western-themed musical? If I’m not mistaken, most of the musicals since then have been independently produced. here’s a link to IMDB’s “Paint Your Wagons”: [http://us.imdb.com/Title?0064782](http://us.imdb.com/Title?0064782) [irrelevant anecdote] Incidentally, an episode of the Simpsons (All Singing, All Dancing, #5F24) parodies “Paint Your Wagons”. It took several viewings before I realized that it was an actual movie and not a joke. 🙂 [/irrelevant anecdote] ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wnat-killed-musical/50087/17 "2001-01-15T20:41:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by evilhanz \* > \*\*I always thought that “Paint Your Wagons” (US 1969) was the Grim Reaper of standard Hollywood musicals. (It also killed the Western genre for a number of years). Although I have not seen it, the film is purportedly horrible. I mean, Lee Marvin and Clint Eastwood singing in a Western-themed musical? If I’m not mistaken, most of the musicals since then have been independently produced. > > here’s a link to IMDB’s “Paint Your Wagons”: [http://us.imdb.com/Title?0064782](http://us.imdb.com/Title?0064782) > > [irrelevant anecdote] > Incidentally, an episode of the Simpsons (All Singing, All Dancing, #5F24) parodies “Paint Your Wagons”. It took several viewings before I realized that it was an actual movie and not a joke. 🙂 > [/irrelevant anecdote] \*\* [equally irrelevant anecdote] Paint Your Wagon, the movie has nothing, except some songs and character names in common with Paint Your Wagon, the stage version. The play is about the young daughter of a gold-miner who’s raised in an all male mining town. When she falls for a young Mexican (?) miner, the dad, now having hit it rich sends her off to boarding school. I don’t remember the details of the ending anymore, but IIRC all works out for everyone. Fenris ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wnat-killed-musical/50087/18 "2001-01-15T20:43:56Z")
The movie musical is pretty much dead. There are a lot of reasons, and it doesn’t look like there’s going to be a revival any time soon. 1. Fragmentation of musical tastes. In the heyday of the musical, there was a general agreement on what made good music, so it was possible to write in that idiom. Starting with rock & roll, groups preferred one type of music or another – and refused to cross genre lines. The “popular song” genre is pretty much dead right now. 2. Stephen Sondheim and Andrew Lloyd Webber. The two biggest names on Broadway, and both are mediocre composers with delusions of grandeur. With all his hits, Sondheim has written only about three memorable tunes. Webber is better – one a show, but the rest is mediocre. Worse, they brought in a need for bombast and seriousness that just doesn’t work in film. 3. Triumph of realism. People complain that a musical is not realistic. As opposed to the stark realism of Star Wars, for example. But people are used to realistic situations and are put off by people suddenly stopping and singing. One movie a few years ago (“Say Anything,” I think) was made as a musical, but dropped all the songs! 4. Flops. Movies went big for Hollywood musicals in the wake of “The Sound of Music.” Since then, most have failed. (see “Newsies”) Hollywood works on the bottom line and the conventional wisdom is that people don’t want to see musicals. There have been some decent attempts using already written songs (“People Will Say I Love You” and “Love’s Labour’s Lost”), but people stayed away from them. 5. Broadway no longer a source. See 2, but some of the current Broadway hits are movies put on stage (“The Lion King” and “Beauty and The Beast”). A lot of Broadway shows also survive on spectacle, which isn’t very spectacular at your local multiplex. Also, revivals are very popular, so there’s no point in making a new version. Sooner or later, someone will manage to put it all together and create a movie musical that makes a lot of money. Until then, you won’t see many of them. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wnat-killed-musical/50087/19 "2001-01-15T20:55:47Z")
The Simpsons’ Paint Your Wagon was a REAL movie?! Ah…