# Woke Me When It's Over **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 22, 2019, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woke-me-when-its-over/842159 "2019-10-22T21:56:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woke-me-when-its-over/842159/1 "2019-10-22T21:56:32Z")
This was the working title for the upcoming book Meghan Daum is doing a promotional media tour for. It is about the “new culture wars” and their suffocating and confounding effect on liberal but not “woke” GenXers like her (and me). New York Times review here: [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/16/books/review/the-problem-with-everything-meghan-daum.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/16/books/review/the-problem-with-everything-meghan-daum.html) One very trenchant observation Daum makes that has particular resonance for me is that there is a sense among many journalists now, especially younger ones, that in the era of Trump we don’t have the luxury to be nuanced, to be fair, but must dedicate all our energy to fighting the #resistance as energetically as possible. (In a sign that there is nothing new under the sun, the book opens with a quote from a 1972 Joan Didion essay on the women’s movement: “The half-truths, repeated, authenticated themselves.”) There are deep philosophical problems with this, obviously (although sadly that is not obvious to everyone). But even if you leave those aside, this impulse is wrongheaded just from a narrow partisan political perspective. Someone who is willing to grant certain points to the other side, but then proceed to show why they are wrong in the main, has a much stronger debating position than someone who gives no quarter on anything. Dale Carnegie talked about this a century ago in his mega-blockbuster book _How to Win Friends and Influence People_, and it remains true today. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woke-me-when-its-over/842159/2 "2019-10-22T22:50:18Z")
If you are inviting my opinion on the _New York Times_ article, this is the sentence that stood out most to me: > [@](#): > > However, she insists, the migration of #MeToo to #BelieveWomen also “fundamentally flew in the face of ‘innocent until proven guilty.’” I have encountered this paradox while researching sexual objectification in a different thread, and might be interested in reading the book if Ms. Daum’s book claimed to resolve it. Alas, ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woke-me-when-its-over/842159/3 "2019-10-22T23:15:51Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > If you are inviting my opinion on the _New York Times_ article, this is the sentence that stood out most to me: > > I have encountered this paradox while researching sexual objectification in a different thread, and might be interested in reading the book if Ms. Daum’s book claimed to resolve it. > > Alas, > > ~Max It’s not a paradox, just a challenge. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woke-me-when-its-over/842159/4 "2019-10-22T23:24:10Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > It’s not a paradox, just a challenge. Aren’t they all? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woke-me-when-its-over/842159/5 "2019-10-23T00:06:03Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > It’s not a paradox, just a challenge. Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woke-me-when-its-over/842159/6 "2019-10-23T00:23:17Z")
Please elaborate on the challenge. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woke-me-when-its-over/842159/7 "2019-10-23T00:28:11Z")
That’s weird. Here I thought #BelieveWomen was treating reports of sexual abuse and assault the same as reports of other crimes, instead of trying to find ways that the woman was asking for it. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woke-me-when-its-over/842159/8 "2019-10-23T01:36:07Z")
It’s the difference between taking reports of assault seriously, which we definitely should do, and automatically believing they are accurate, which we definitely should not. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woke-me-when-its-over/842159/9 "2019-10-23T01:50:09Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > It’s the difference between taking reports of assault seriously, which we definitely should do, and automatically believing they are accurate, which we definitely should not. I agree. Good thing most people are calling for an investigation of a report instead of “automatically believing they are accurate” ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woke-me-when-its-over/842159/10 "2019-10-23T01:56:41Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I agree. Good thing most people are calling for an investigation of a report instead of “automatically believing they are accurate” Tell that to Woody Allen. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woke-me-when-its-over/842159/11 "2019-10-23T02:20:47Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Tell that to Woody Allen. :dubious: Why would I? Was he arrested for sexual assault? Has his career been ruined because of false accusations of sexual assault? Why, exactly, would I tell that to Woody Allen? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woke-me-when-its-over/842159/12 "2019-10-23T06:56:15Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I agree. Good thing most people are calling for an investigation of a report instead of “automatically believing they are accurate” Hard to tell sometimes where one crosses over into the other. In the UK there has been, over the past 5 years or so, a pretty depressing and very high-profile episode that played out because someone making historical child-abuse claims had those claims accepted as “true” by the authorities. [It hasn’t ended well](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jul/22/how-nick-the-serial-child-abuse-accuser-became-the-accused). ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woke-me-when-its-over/842159/13 "2019-10-23T11:40:24Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Someone who is willing to grant certain points to the other side, but then proceed to show why they are wrong in the main, has a much stronger debating position than someone who gives no quarter on anything. Someone who grants certain points is much likelier to be correct, and much likelier to be arguing in good faith. But why do they have a “Stronger position”? What are you defining as a position of strength? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woke-me-when-its-over/842159/14 "2019-10-23T12:05:36Z")
Hashtags don’t explain social movements. Based on the quotes, it appears the author of this article buys into the alt-right/conservative/anti-feminist descriptions of movements like #MeToo rather than the actual facts about them. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woke-me-when-its-over/842159/15 "2019-10-23T12:46:06Z")
I should care about some little blonde thing’s misappropriation of black terminology to try and create buzzwords (“wokescenti” - Barf!) and love affair with the heroes of the IDW, why? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woke-me-when-its-over/842159/16 "2019-10-23T12:46:32Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Someone who grants certain points is much likelier to be correct, and much likelier to be arguing in good faith. But why do they have a “Stronger position”? What are you defining as a position of strength? Because the optics of their argumentation style create the appearance of being reasonable and not just reflexively defensive of their position. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woke-me-when-its-over/842159/17 "2019-10-23T12:53:35Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Why would I? Was he arrested for sexual assault? Has his career been ruined because of false accusations of sexual assault? Why, exactly, would I tell that to Woody Allen? Interesting goalpost shift. Now you are pretty much doing what you said most people don’t do: assuming the charges against him are true until proved false, even though there was an investigation and there was found to be no merit to them. And yes, his career has been ruined: [Woody Allen's Career is Over: Why the Culture is Turning Its Back](https://www.indiewire.com/2018/01/woody-allen-career-over-timothee-chalamet-times-up-1201917667/) ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woke-me-when-its-over/842159/18 "2019-10-23T13:38:06Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > And yes, his career has been ruined: [Woody Allen's Career is Over: Why the Culture is Turning Its Back](https://www.indiewire.com/2018/01/woody-allen-career-over-timothee-chalamet-times-up-1201917667/) That article seems to have [prematurely](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8593904/fullcredits/?ref_=tt_ov_st_sm) written his career obituary. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woke-me-when-its-over/842159/19 "2019-10-23T13:47:21Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I should care about some little blonde thing’s misappropriation of black terminology to try and create buzzwords (“wokescenti” - Barf!) and love affair with the heroes of the IDW, why? “some little blonde thing”? :dubious: That stands out to me as an unnecessarily disparaging way to talk about a woman, any woman. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woke-me-when-its-over/842159/20 "2019-10-23T13:57:29Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Interesting goalpost shift. Now you are pretty much doing what you said most people don’t do: assuming the charges against him are true until proved false, even though there was an investigation and there was found to be no merit to them I have literally no idea how you get any of this from my post. > [@](#): > > And yes, his career has been ruined: [Woody Allen's Career is Over: Why the Culture is Turning Its Back](https://www.indiewire.com/2018/01/woody-allen-career-over-timothee-chalamet-times-up-1201917667/) Seems strange that a guy with a ruined career would still be making movies. 😕 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woke-me-when-its-over/842159.md?page=2)