# Wolverine: Origin (a question for X-Men geeks) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 5, 2002, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolverine-origin-a-question-for-x-men-geeks/117519 "2002-07-05T18:18:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Alphagene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Alphagene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alphagene)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolverine-origin-a-question-for-x-men-geeks/117519/21 "2002-07-14T17:03:59Z")
Wait, he’s _not_ gay now? First Mystique then Northstar… Superheros just can’t stay queer. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolverine-origin-a-question-for-x-men-geeks/117519/22 "2002-07-14T18:05:15Z")
I remember at the time Northstar was getting very sick (coughing up blood and such) and there were rumours he had AIDS, but then they pulled that whole elf thing and the series went to hell. This was around the time I stopped buying the thing for good, because it was just getting sooooo stupid. The mystical elements were starting to rival _Doctor Strange_, and I lost patience. Around this time, Wolverine started appearing more often, probably to try to buoy up sagging sales. I picked up an issue a while later and saw they brought back James Hudson _again_. Sigh. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolverine-origin-a-question-for-x-men-geeks/117519/23 "2002-07-14T19:35:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by El Elvis Rojo \* > \*\*But seeing as how James just gutted one person and mutilated another, plus he was bleeding, I’m pretty sure the bloodied, claw protruding hand was his. \*\* But in the panel in question, the hand has no obvious blood on it. On the previous page, James’ hands are bloody. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Also, why would gramps show, even for a SECOND, that he too had a mutation anywhere similar to whatever James had. If he did, and knowing the first child had the same mutation, he would have most likely been prepared for James’ mutation, and been a lot more forgiving and used his power to pin the murders and everything on Dog. \*\* I saw Gramps as being angry and disgusted at James’ lack of control, not his powers. Dead Kid lost control and clawed Liz. James loses control, claws Dog, and kills Thomas Logan. > [@](#): > > \*\*As for Gramp’s fathering Thomas Logan…Huh? Where’d that come from? And I was pretty sure they made reference to Dog being the son of another woman. I could be wrong, but I don’t see anyway a child’s birth could be hidden and the child passed over to an unmarried man without the husband getting suspicious. \*\* Again, I say John was impotent. He knew that James was not his son. But, he wasn’t going to publicize that he was impotent and his wife was having an affair with the groundskeeper. So John keeps his mouth shut, and gets an heir to raise as his own son. > [@](#): > > \*\* I assumed Dog was the son of Thomas and his wife, she died in childbirth or soon after, and then fathered both James and his brother. The mutation aspect was all from his side of the family. But, I mainly get that from the fact that James and Dog both looked a hell of a lot like him (funny how Dog starts off looking like Thomas, then looks entirely different when older, and with James, it’s the exact opposite). \*\* Exactly. James starts out looking like John. He grows up to look like Thomas Logan. We both agree that Thomas Logan is James’ father. That explains why James’ would grow up to resemble TL. But why would young James resemble John? I say that John is James’ uncle. Gramps IMHO anyway, does bear a resemblance to TL. Gramps had a legitimate marriage, and John. He also had an affair which produced TL. This explains why Gramps puts up with so much from TL, and why TL hates and resents John so much. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Overall, I still hold to my claim that this book sucked and needs to be wiped off the face of existance. \*\* On this point at least, I agree completely. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Elvis\_Rojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@El\_Elvis\_Rojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Elvis_Rojo)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolverine-origin-a-question-for-x-men-geeks/117519/24 "2002-07-14T21:17:19Z")
[QUOTE] _Originally posted by DocCathode \* \*\* I saw Gramps as being angry and disgusted at James’ lack of control, not his powers. Dead Kid lost control and clawed Liz. James loses control, claws Dog, and kills Thomas Logan._\* But Logan killed John. I would view that as more “self defence/vengence” than “lack of control.” I’d think Gramps would be more proud of him for killing Thomas for the death of John than angry at his “lack of control.” And again, if he were a mutant, Gramps would know about how terrible an experience the onset of one’s powers would be, and given the situation, been a hell of a lot more forgiving and been more “mentor.” I need to go back and look at the panel you mention to see this Gramp-claw hand, but I’m pretty sure the hand is Jame’s. Comic artists aren’t always consistant, so just because James has a bloody hand in some panels but not in others doesn’t mean his hand isn’t his hand. I’ll look into it. \*\* Again, I say John was impotent. He knew that James was not his son. But, he wasn’t going to publicize that he was impotent and his wife was having an affair with the groundskeeper. So John keeps his mouth shut, and gets an heir to raise as his own son.\*\* ``` Eh, it's still speculation. I always took "Soft John" to be more "weak and soft-hearted." You know, what men nowadays would call a "Pussy." Logan had a MUCH more agressive attitude than John, and because he was a servant to someone he felt was his inferior, it angered him. That's what I got from all the names. And if John knew Logan was fathering all his children, why not kick him off the property? He burns down his house when his son kills Jame's dog, but won't fire him when he REPEATEDLY FUCKS AND IMPREGNATES HIS WIFE? That makes no sense. Once he realized Logan was boffing his wife, I'm pretty sure he would have found some reason to ship him off, or even found a reason to ship his wife off. I'm pretty sure he was in the dark entirely about his wife's fucking Logan, otherwise, Thomas's house would have been burnt down years ago. ``` And if Thomas and John’s wife (forgot her name) did have all three sons together, why would John allow Logan to have Dog? Giving away one of your children to the groundskeeper just doesn’t sound like common payment for a job well done in my book. Plus, that would have clued Gramps in on the whole infidelity thing, and I’m pretty sure he would have burned down MORE than Logan’s house once that realization came about. Also, James and his brother both were sickly children with the same mutation, yet Dog was completely human…which now makes me think that the mutation came from the mother. Which, again for me, implies James and Dog had different mothers. Why I’m spending all this time talking about this storyarch I hate, I’ll never know. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Elvis\_Rojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@El\_Elvis\_Rojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Elvis_Rojo)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolverine-origin-a-question-for-x-men-geeks/117519/25 "2002-07-14T21:26:26Z")
[QUOTE] _Originally posted by DocCathode \* \*\* I saw Gramps as being angry and disgusted at James’ lack of control, not his powers. Dead Kid lost control and clawed Liz. James loses control, claws Dog, and kills Thomas Logan._\* But Logan killed John. I would view that as more “self defence/vengence” than “lack of control.” I’d think Gramps would be more proud of him for killing Thomas for the death of John than angry at his “lack of control.” And again, if he were a mutant, Gramps would know about how terrible an experience the onset of one’s powers would be, and given the situation, been a hell of a lot more forgiving and been more “mentor.” I need to go back and look at the panel you mention to see this Gramp-claw hand, but I’m pretty sure the hand is Jame’s. Comic artists aren’t always consistant, so just because James has a bloody hand in some panels but not in others doesn’t mean his hand isn’t his hand. I’ll look into it. \*\* Again, I say John was impotent. He knew that James was not his son. But, he wasn’t going to publicize that he was impotent and his wife was having an affair with the groundskeeper. So John keeps his mouth shut, and gets an heir to raise as his own son.\*\* ``` Eh, it's still speculation. I always took "Soft John" to be more "weak and soft-hearted." You know, what men nowadays would call a "Pussy." Logan had a MUCH more agressive attitude than John, and because he was a servant to someone he felt was his inferior, it angered him. That's what I got from all the names. And if John knew Logan was fathering all his children, why not kick him off the property? He burns down his house when his son kills Jame's dog, but won't fire him when he REPEATEDLY FUCKS AND IMPREGNATES HIS WIFE? That makes no sense. Once he realized Logan was boffing his wife, I'm pretty sure he would have found some reason to ship him off, or even found a reason to ship his wife off. I'm pretty sure he was in the dark entirely about his wife's fucking Logan, otherwise, Thomas's house would have been burnt down years ago. ``` And if Thomas and John’s wife (forgot her name) did have all three sons together, why would John allow Logan to have Dog? Giving away one of your children to the groundskeeper just doesn’t sound like common payment for a job well done in my book. Plus, that would have clued Gramps in on the whole infidelity thing, and I’m pretty sure he would have burned down MORE than Logan’s house once that realization came about. Also, James and his brother both were sickly children with the same mutation, yet Dog was completely human…which now makes me think that the mutation came from the mother. Which, again for me, implies James and Dog had different mothers. Why I’m spending all this time talking about this storyarch I hate, I’ll never know. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolverine-origin-a-question-for-x-men-geeks/117519/26 "2002-07-14T21:42:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by El Elvis Rojo \* > \*\* > And if John knew Logan was fathering all his children, why not kick him off the property? He burns down his house when his son kills Jame’s dog, but won’t fire him when he REPEATEDLY FUCKS AND IMPREGNATES HIS WIFE? That makes no sense. Once he realized Logan was boffing his wife, I’m pretty sure he would have found some reason to ship him off, or even found a reason to ship his wife off. I’m pretty sure he was in the dark entirely about his wife’s fucking Logan, otherwise, Thomas’s house would have been burnt down years ago. \*\* I think the last thing John would want is to cause a scandal. Liz becomes a prisoner in her own house. Logan stays on the grounds because John is worried that banishing Logan would push him over the edge (which it does). If you accept my theory on John’s impotence, his behavior makes more sense. True his wife had an affair. But John now has an heir. When Dk dies, Logan and Liz produce Dog and James. Liz and Logan may love eachother, but it seems they’ve had sex a total of twice. Look at what Henry VIII went through just to get a male heir. An impotent man allowing his half-brother to sleep with his wife pales in comparison. > [@](#): > > \*\* And if Thomas and John’s wife (forgot her name) did have all three sons together, why would John allow Logan to have Dog? Giving away one of your children to the groundskeeper just doesn’t sound like common payment for a job well done in my book. \*\* From my first post in this thread- . Dog resembles Logan too strongly to be passed off as John’s son. He is given to Logan to raise. ``` James looks like John and can be passed off as John's son. Dog looks like Logan. Rather than shipping Dog to some distant orphanage, he is given to Logan. ``` ---
**Author:** ![El\_Elvis\_Rojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@El\_Elvis\_Rojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Elvis_Rojo)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolverine-origin-a-question-for-x-men-geeks/117519/27 "2002-07-14T22:18:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DocCathode \* > > * * * > > ``` > Logan stays on the grounds because John is worried that banishing Logan would push him over the edge (which it does).** > > ``` ``` I don't think it was being kicked off the grounds so much as having his home and all his personal belongings burned to the ground then forcibly removed. And that was also several years later. When the affair was first brought to light, the situation could have been handled completely different, and such a scenario may never have happened. ``` > [@](#): > > \*\* If you accept my theory on John’s impotence, his behavior makes more sense. True his wife had an affair. But John now has an heir. When Dk dies, Logan and Liz produce Dog and James. Liz and Logan may love eachother, but it seems they’ve had sex a total of twice. \*\* That’s the thing: I don’t accept the John’s impotent theory. Maybe he was sterile? Maybe DK was his child, and the mutation came from the wife, thus, even though the two had separate fathers, they’d still have the same mutation. Too much speculation there, though. Gramps give John just as much shit for being “soft” as Logan does, and I seriously doubt he would mock his son’s inability to get it up so loudly. If he was and Gramps knew, Gramps would know the kids were illegitimate, and I don’t think he’d be the kind to keep quiet. I’m not sure how important having an heir was to these people, but I don’t think that’s enough to have this guy keep two children that aren’t his. > [@](#): > > \*\*From my first post in this thread- > . Dog resembles Logan too strongly to be passed off as John’s son. He is given to Logan to raise. \*\* Ummm…babies aren’t that distinguishable the first several months to couple years. Unless Dog came out covered in body hair, how the hell would they know “Gee, he definitely doesn’t look like John, we’d better give him to Logan.” By the time they did notice that he didn’t look much like John, they could make some shit up like “Oh, he takes after Liz’s father.” Give him a haircut every two weeks, and shave off those sideburns, the similarity dies down. Also, that would make it more difficult to hand the child over. You keep saying that John “didn’t want to cause any controversy,” but wouldn’t your wife being pregnant for nine months, yet not having a baby to show for it be rather odd? And the fact that suddenly single Mr. Thomas Logan has a child be a little controversial? “Cover up” means keeping all THREE children, not pick and choose. Again, for me, this implies Dog was born from Logan’s first wife, not Liz. And I still fail to see any kind of kinship between Logan and John. Oh, and something new: Rose’s death? Completely contrived, used to death already, and really, really lame. ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2002, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolverine-origin-a-question-for-x-men-geeks/117519/28 "2002-07-15T02:48:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by El Elvis Rojo \* > \*\* > Oh, and something new: Rose’s death? Completely contrived, used to death already, and really, really lame. \*\* On this, at least, I agree with you, and I actually liked _Origin_. Why they couldn’t have come up with some sort of actual ending is way beyond me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolverine-origin-a-question-for-x-men-geeks/117519.md?page=1)