# Wolverine was dopey -- X2 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 13, 2003, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolverine-was-dopey-x2/174988 "2003-05-13T16:47:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![White\_Lightning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@White\_Lightning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/White_Lightning)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolverine-was-dopey-x2/174988/21 "2003-05-14T18:18:48Z")
That Secret Wars ish can’t be extrapolated to mean anything because it contradicts what we already know about some characters. Rogue can’t rip Spidey’s webs? Baloney. Spidey made the X-Men look like amateurs because they acted like amateurs. No teamwork, no coordination, no persistence. Nightcrawler can’t 'port away from (or out of) Spidey’s webs? Colossus gets a web in the face and immediately gives up? Wolvie takes one jab and is out? Baloney. **Number Six** :[spoiler]Oh, I caught the foreshadowing. When I said it’s clear that the movie Phoenix won’t have much to do with the book Phoenix, I just meant the backstory is too massive to explain in the movie. They’ve already cut out the involvement of the Shi’ar. Do you really think they’re going to introduce the Phoenix Force? If they do, do you doubt that they’re going to excise all the crap about Maddy, the clone at the bottom of the sea, etc? Seems pretty clear that it’s going to be something along the lines of her latent mutant power finally awaking, and the ‘Phoenix’ connection will just be window dressing. Would you disagree? Here’s hoping they do give her the Phoenix costume, though. That red and gold metallic… yeah.[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolverine-was-dopey-x2/174988/22 "2003-05-14T18:33:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by White Lightning \* > \*\*That Secret Wars ish can’t be extrapolated to mean anything because it contradicts what we already know about some characters. Rogue can’t rip Spidey’s webs? Baloney. Spidey made the X-Men look like amateurs because they acted like amateurs. No teamwork, no coordination, no persistence. Nightcrawler can’t 'port away from (or out of) Spidey’s webs? Colossus gets a web in the face and immediately gives up? Wolvie takes one jab and is out? Baloney. > \*\* Spidey’s webs are pretty strong. In the last issue of Marvel Team Up our friendly neighborhood Spider-Man uses his webbing to slow the Juggernaut down. If it can slow down Juggernaut it should give Rogue a few problems. Marc ---
**Author:** ![White\_Lightning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@White\_Lightning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/White_Lightning)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolverine-was-dopey-x2/174988/23 "2003-05-14T20:10:22Z")
I was specifically thinking of the Juggernaut when I wrote that. IIRC from the two Spidey issues where he first tangles with Cain, he brushes off his webs like they were nothing (sorry, no cite). Rogue’s pretty damn strong, easily far stronger than Spidey himself. The dumbest thing about it was what she said – ‘they’re as strong as steel cables.’ As if she couldn’t shred steel cables in moments. On preview: At first I thought you and I were talking about different encounters, **Marc** , because I thought the one I was thinking of was Spidey solo, but now that I think about it it might have been a Team-Up… what was her name… Madame Webb or something. Is that the same one you were talking about? ---
**Author:** ![sghoul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@sghoul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sghoul)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolverine-was-dopey-x2/174988/24 "2003-05-14T20:25:49Z")
Keep in mind, we are talking about not using the X-men to their fullest. If Nightcrawler wanted, he could just port onto Spidey’s head and then port his head off. When it comes down to it, writers take great liberties with heroes. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolverine-was-dopey-x2/174988/25 "2003-05-14T20:59:56Z")
re: The OP I’m actually glad. I was kinda :rolleyes: whenever Wolvie was considered ‘God, incarnate’. The movie showed that there are more powerful mutants (Magneto’s powers shined), and that Wolvie isn’t the be all and end all. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolverine-was-dopey-x2/174988/26 "2003-05-14T21:06:43Z")
**White Lightning** wrote: > [@](#): > > Rogue can’t rip Spidey’s webs? Baloney. The webbing just out of the shooter has the tensile strength of steel. Rogue has been hit with a fair bit of it. How much steel can she rip through, much less snap with just her flying ability? > [@](#): > > Spidey made the X-Men look like amateurs because they acted like amateurs. No teamwork, no coordination, no persistence. They ganged up on him in a co-ordinated fashion. They didn’t get in eachother’s way, but they were all ready to do their part when a teamate failed. As for persistence, they didn’t have time, and Wolverine was verbally thankful for it. > [@](#): > > Nightcrawler can’t 'port away from (or out of) Spidey’s webs? He didn’t react quickly enough to avoid them. Whether he could have teleported out of them is another issue. The webs are awfully adhesive. If Nightcrawler accidentally superglues his hands together, can he teleport away from the glue? > [@](#): > > Colossus gets a web in the face and immediately gives up? It should be easier for Colosus to rip webs away from his face than it was for Sabretooth in Spectacular Spider-Man #116, who had to be hospitalized after the attempt, but it still wouldn’t be easy. So, what did you expect Colosus to do with no eyesight? > [@](#): > > Wolvie takes one jab and is out? What jab? He took a wide-arced, backhanded slap from a guy who can bench press a semi full of ball bearings. Sure, Wolverine can get right back on his feet, but he’s got to land first. > [@](#): > > IIRC from the two Spidey issues where he first tangles with Cain, he brushes off his webs like they were nothing (sorry, no cite). In Amazing Spider-Man #229-230, Spider-Man wasn’t able to slow him using his web wall. But in X-Force #3 Spider-Man was able to slow down the Juggernaut by applying his webbing directly to the guy’s feet. ---
**Author:** ![White\_Lightning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@White\_Lightning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/White_Lightning)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolverine-was-dopey-x2/174988/27 "2003-05-14T22:37:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by \*\*ISiddiqui \*\*\* > The movie showed that there are more powerful mutants (Magneto’s powers shined), and that Wolvie isn’t the be all and end all. [Spoiler box neglected] The scene where Mags escapes from the plastic prison… oh man. What a cool and creative way for them to utilize his powers. That’s orders of magnitude cooler than flipping cop-cars upside down. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by \*\*Johnny Angel \*\*\* > The webbing just out of the shooter has the tensile strength of steel. Rogue has been hit with a fair bit of it. How much steel can she rip through, much less snap with just her flying ability? A bunch, probly. Ms. Marvel was pretty dang strong, and they seemed to make Rogue with her powers even stronger. Back in the day when they were making trading cards with power ratings and things she was definitely on the high end of the strength scale (sorry, no cite). > [@](#): > > They ganged up on him in a co-ordinated fashion. They didn’t get in eachother’s way, but they were all ready to do their part when a teamate failed. I definitely disagree with this. They were ‘coordinated’ in the way that kung-fu movie bad guys are – they patiently waited their turn to attack one at a time. > [@](#): > > Whether [Nightcrawler] could have teleported out of them is another issue. The webs are awfully adhesive. If Nightcrawler accidentally superglues his hands together, can he teleport away from the glue? Good question. This aspect of his powers has never been fully treated. We know he can 'port with or without his clothes, so I’ve always figured he could pick and choose what external objects come along. But you get too deeply into that and it just gets silly. Another question would be, if Colossus changed forms would the webs continue to stick? Interesting hypothetical but not something the writers would ever explore in action. > [@](#): > > He took a wide-arced, backhanded slap from a guy who can bench press a semi full of ball bearings. Sure, Wolverine can get right back on his feet, but he’s got to land first. This will fall to a matter of interpretation. From looking at that panel it looked to me like he barely flicked him. To you it may look different. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolverine-was-dopey-x2/174988/28 "2003-05-14T23:04:45Z")
> [@](#): > > The scene where Mags escapes from the plastic prison… oh man. What a cool and creative way for them to utilize his powers. That’s orders of magnitude cooler than flipping cop-cars upside down. Oh yes… but I also like how easy it is for Mags to control anything metallic (the plane scene). ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolverine-was-dopey-x2/174988/29 "2003-05-15T12:43:58Z")
**White Lightning** wrote: > [@](#): > > Back in the day when they were making trading cards with power ratings and things she was definitely on the high end of the strength scale (sorry, no cite). In the 1991 collection of cards, Rogue was rated as having a 4 in strength, the same as Spider-Man. Spider-Man can break out of his own webbing, but not easily. > [@](#): > > I definitely disagree with this. They were ‘coordinated’ in the way that kung-fu movie bad guys are – they patiently waited their turn to attack one at a time. It’s just the way the comic book medium requires. They always do it like that, because you can only depict a couple of actions at most per panel. The only difference here is that the X-Men failed, so they are interpreted as having not been coordinated. It sort of begs the question. > [@](#): > > Good question. This aspect of his powers has never been fully treated. We know he can 'port with or without his clothes, so I’ve always figured he could pick and choose what external objects come along. But you get too deeply into that and it just gets silly. I mean, surely he can teleport whatever is part of him, and his costume, as a trivial move. But that can get vague pretty quickly. > [@](#): > > From looking at that panel it looked to me like he barely flicked him. To you it may look different. Er, yeah. It looks to me like he knocked him ass-over-teakettle. ---
**Author:** ![Anal\_Scurvy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c57346/32.png) [@Anal\_Scurvy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anal_Scurvy)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolverine-was-dopey-x2/174988/30 "2003-05-15T13:44:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by White Lightning \* > \*\*A bunch, probly. Ms. Marvel was pretty dang strong, and they seemed to make Rogue with her powers even stronger. Back in the day when they were making trading cards with power ratings and things she was definitely on the high end of the strength scale (sorry, no cite). \*\* I remember those cards. Spider-Man’s strength was a four and I think Rogue’s was either a four or a five. However, that means squat outside of that trading card set, due to writer’s liberties already mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![Asylum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/53a042/32.png) [@Asylum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asylum)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolverine-was-dopey-x2/174988/31 "2003-05-15T17:26:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Johnny Angel \* > **In the 1991 collection of cards, Rogue was rated as having a 4 in strength, the same as Spider-Man. Spider-Man can break out of his own webbing, but not easily.** When did Spider-Man ever rip his own webs? I don’t remember that but I do remember his jumping into a web he had put up in a hallway, getting stuck and having to wait an hour until it dissolved because he couldn’t tear himself free. Oh yeah, and what **Anal Scurvy** said. > [@](#): > > \*\*It’s just the way the comic book medium requires. They always do it like that, because you can only depict a couple of actions at most per panel. The only difference here is that the X-Men failed, so they are interpreted as having not been coordinated. It sort of begs the question. \*\*After my reading it I was under the impression that the attacks were uncoordinated, and if they were coordinated why didn’t they just show “those panels”? Even if the artist is only showing “some” of the actions (which I disagree with) the ones he showed depicted a fight in which the X-Men weren’t operating at the top level they’re capable of. Lining up to go one at a time at Spider-Man is not the best way to operate. This is a guy who took out Firelord. > [@](#): > > \*\*I mean, surely he can teleport whatever is part of him, and his costume, as a trivial move. But that can get vague pretty quickly. \*\*Apparently Nightcrawler can teleport out of Spidey’s webbing ([top left panel](http://www.jpj.net/~angel/SvsX/15.html)), but after getting webbed up so quickly I think that he was a bit stunned and wasn’t concentrating on porting. After a moment or two he did, but by then Spidey was gone. > [@](#): > > \*\*Er, yeah. It looks to me like he knocked him ass-over-teakettle. \*\* Maybe so, but Wolvie got back up pretty quick. He’s in that top left panel as well. I’ve read that fight I don’t know how many times and all it looks like to me is Spider-Man trying to get away. He doesn’t put anyone down for the count, indeed he never touches Storm, he’s just trying to incapacitate them long enough to get away. If he had stuck around one of them would have eventually laid a hand on him and it would have been game over. ---
**Author:** ![White\_Lightning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@White\_Lightning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/White_Lightning)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolverine-was-dopey-x2/174988/32 "2003-05-15T18:45:56Z")
I agree with **Asylum**. Good point about Kurt being on the last page of that sequence web-free; I didn’t notice that at all. I thought I remembered Rogue being a 5 in strength to Spidey’s 4 in the 1991 cards. And that’s out of a max of 7, where very few characters had 7 (the Hulk and Thor are the only ones I can recall offhand). It’s certainly true that those ratings are nearly meaningless, though. Where in the world did this hijack come from, by the way? Man. ---
**Author:** ![jeevmon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@jeevmon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jeevmon)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolverine-was-dopey-x2/174988/33 "2003-05-15T22:01:25Z")
My god, it’s like a debate between Larry Groznic and Comic Book Guy. (Or are they the same person?) ---
**Author:** ![Vlad\_Dracul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/50afbb/32.png) [@Vlad\_Dracul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vlad_Dracul)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolverine-was-dopey-x2/174988/34 "2003-05-16T04:05:21Z")
Does it strike anyone else as odd that Spidey even bothered to attack the X-Men in that situation? His goal was obviously to carry the news of the X-Men’s planned defection back to his teammates. With his speed and agility, he could easily have gone out the way he came in, before anyone could try to stop him. If he was worried about the Professor mind-zapping him before he could reach the others, he could easily have run right after rapping Xavier on the head, instead of staying to show off. Only Rogue and Nightcrawler would have any prayer of catching up to him, and even they wouldn’t have been able to grab him. As many battles as the man has been in, you’d think he’d have developed a better sense of strategy. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolverine-was-dopey-x2/174988/35 "2003-05-16T09:45:59Z")
**Asylum** wrote: > [@](#): > > When did Spider-Man ever rip his own webs? I don’t remember that but I do remember his jumping into a web he had put up in a hallway, getting stuck and having to wait an hour until it dissolved because he couldn’t tear himself free. He definitely can’t break through his own webbing once it hardens. But I’m not sure what his chances are when it’s fresh. > [@](#): > > Lining up to go one at a time at Spider-Man is not the best way to operate. The didn’t just line up, though, they were trying to surround him without getting in eachother’s way. Can you cite an example in which the X-Men work according to what you call coordination and still fail? > [@](#): > > If he had stuck around one of them would have eventually laid a hand on him and it would have been game over. They would have to have laid hands on him a lot, actually. It’s not that easy with Spider-Man. But he was definitely only interested in escaping. **White Lightning** wrote: > [@](#): > > I thought I remembered Rogue being a 5 in strength to Spidey’s 4 in the 1991 cards. You might be getting it mixed up with the Marvel Super Heros RPG in which Rogue’s strength was Amazing (50) and Spider-Man’s was merely Incredible (40). But the cards definitely rate them at the same strength. > [@](#): > > Where in the world did this hijack come from, by the way? Man. I mentioned it in response to **Asylum** ’s comment about the inability of Wolverine fans to believe he’s not the baddest motherfucker in the world. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolverine-was-dopey-x2/174988.md?page=1)