# 'Wolves' **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 24, 2004, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolves/270848 "2004-10-24T02:24:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolves/270848/41 "2004-10-25T02:26:41Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > The _Chesapeake_ was beaten in a fair one-on-one fight by the HMS _Shannon_ in 1812. Perhaps you’re referring to the _Chesapeake_ - _Leopard_ affair a few years earlier? In June 1807, the USS Chesapeake was stopped by a British ship off the coast of Virginia. The British commander demanded the right to board and search the Chesapeake for British deserters. (This was part of Britian’s policy of impressment where they essentially kidnapped American sailors and forced them to work on British ships.) When the commander of the Chesapeake refused, the British ship opened fire, killing 3 Americans and wounding 18. President Jefferson responded to this event by invading Iraq. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolves/270848/42 "2004-10-25T02:27:06Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > What I want to know is, who is Bush talking to on the phone? I hope he’s calling to ream out whoever came up with this ad. Maybe Rove is letting him order the pizza. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolves/270848/43 "2004-10-25T02:30:21Z")
> [@Frostillicus](#): > > In June 1807, the USS Chesapeake was stopped by a British ship off the coast of Virginia… \ I knew that! \ Yep, the _Leopard_. That’s what I was referring to. However, it wasn’t in 1812 and I don’t think you can call that terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolves/270848/44 "2004-10-25T05:21:45Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > Maybe Rove is letting him order the pizza. Actually, it was an archived picture from GeeDubya’s days as Gov of Tex., taken on the day of Karla Fay Tucker’s execution, and was originally planned for release as an example of GeeDubya’s mischevious, puckish wit. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolves/270848/45 "2004-10-25T16:08:38Z")
You know, it occurs to me that maybe we’re interpreting this all wrong. We’ve been blithely assuming that the ad was merely a poorly chosen metaphor, but what if that’s not the case? What if the Bush team is suggesting that the terrorists menacing America are _actual, physical wolves?_ Social and intelligent canids who help to maintain the health of elk and caribou herds…\*and who, in secret, are working to amass huge stockpiles of Nuclear-Biological-Chemical weaponry! \* And let’s be honest: has John Kerry given any indication that he has even considered such a possibility? Can we afford to wait for the U.N. to issue sanctions and inspections? No, it’s clear that in the face of such an imminent threat, the only logical response is to invade the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. Once the wolves have been deposed, the region’s oil revenue can be used to establish a stable democracy for the other woodland creatures. I’m sure that Halliburton would be willing to shoulder the burden of government contracting…all in the interests of national security, of course. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolves/270848/46 "2004-10-25T16:19:24Z")
And now, they’re wolves that [Bush has armed with 760,000 pounds of HMX and RDX explosives](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=282764)!! Bush sez, “You’d _better_ fear those wolves - I armed 'em myself!” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolves/270848/47 "2004-10-25T17:52:57Z")
Wall street was hit by a “car bomb” on September 16th 1920. [Ok, it was a wagon.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_Street_Bombing) (more from the Wikipedia article) People bent on terror had killed 8 Chicago police officers in 1886, killed President William McKinley in 1901, bombed the Los Angeles Times offices in 1910 and killed 20, and mailed bombs to government leaders. But this attack was aimed at the public, and intended to kill large numbers of people. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolves/270848/48 "2004-10-25T18:46:28Z")
Standard link to [factcheck.org](http://factcheck.org)’s article about the [Wolves ad.](http://www.factcheck.org/article291.html) > [@](#): > > A misleading Bush ad criticizes Kerry for proposing to cut intelligence spending – a decade ago, by 4%, when some Republicans also proposed cuts. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolves/270848/49 "2004-10-25T23:57:25Z")
> [@](#): > > **Cervaise** : Only the pathologically ignorant or the unapologetically mendacious… Well, let’s put it this way. It was told from a rancher’s point of view and Rove and Hughes convinced him that the plural was not _wolvies_. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2004, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolves/270848/50 "2004-10-26T00:58:47Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Well, let’s put it this way. It was told from a rancher’s point of view and Rove and Hughes convinced him that the plural was not _wolvies_. It’s not “_wolfies_”? ☹ ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2004, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolves/270848/51 "2004-10-26T01:20:09Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > And now, they’re wolves that [Bush has armed with 760,000 pounds of HMX and RDX explosives](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=282764)!! > > Bush sez, “You’d _better_ fear those wolves - I armed 'em myself!” 😃 You betcha. I’m sure you’ll provide a cite with pictures from a recognized source showing Dubya handing out packages of PETN to all the Iraqis like he’s Father Christmas. :rolleyes: While it is infortunate that a cache of ordinance such as this wasn’t properly secured, it makes more sense to hold battlefield command responsible than GWB. That is unless you’re the sort of person who blames the CEO of General Motors when a mechanic fails to tighten the lug nuts on a Buick and an accident is caused. One final point you’ve skipped over. Many people have beat their breasts and wailed about the war in Iraq, claiming that Saddam had no greater armament than a slingshot and a revolver that produces a flag reading “Bang” in Farsi. You don’t suppose that he meant to do something bad, mean, or unpleasant with this stuff, do you? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2004, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolves/270848/52 "2004-10-26T01:37:09Z")
**danceswithcats** , there is a Great Debates thread that eagerly awaits your very best attempt to defend this collossal fuckup. Take it there if you’ve got the balls. Well, do ya? Do ya have the balls? > [@Knorf](#): > > It’s not “wolfies”? Amadeus is a terrorist? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2004, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolves/270848/53 "2004-10-26T01:41:01Z")
> [@danceswithcats](#): > > Many people have beat their breasts and wailed about the war in Iraq, claiming that Saddam had no greater armament than a slingshot and a revolver that produces a flag reading “Bang” in Farsi. Won’t someone please just think of the poor strawmen?!? ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2004, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolves/270848/54 "2004-10-26T01:41:48Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > **danceswithcats** , there is a Great Debates thread that eagerly awaits your very best attempt to defend this collossal fuckup. Take it there if you’ve got the balls. Well, do ya? Do ya have the balls?Amadeus is a terrorist? Is there some reason you’ve elected to extend the candor of a schoolyard bully? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2004, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolves/270848/55 "2004-10-26T01:52:09Z")
> [@danceswithcats](#): > > While it is infortunate that a cache of ordinance such as this wasn’t properly secured, it makes more sense to hold battlefield command responsible than GWB. That is unless you’re the sort of person who blames the CEO of General Motors when a mechanic fails to tighten the lug nuts on a Buick and an accident is caused. The buck stops at the CiC. Barring unforseeable gross misconduct from a single individual, anything bad that the military does reflects up the chain of command, just as anything good it does echoes up the chain of command. Tell you what: I’ll loudly denounce anyone who attempts to even begin to blame the stolen explosives on Bush just as soon as you loudly denounce anyone who attempts to give Bush any credit for the capture of Saddam, the fall of Baghdad, and the general success of the military endeavor. > [@](#): > > One final point you’ve skipped over. Many people have beat their breasts and wailed about the war in Iraq, claiming that Saddam had no greater armament than a slingshot and a revolver that produces a flag reading “Bang” in Farsi. You don’t suppose that he meant to do something bad, mean, or unpleasant with this stuff, do you? :dubious: Oh for CRYING OUT LOUD. That’s one of the weakest things I’ve ever heard. Repeat after me: -No one denies that Saddam was a Bad Guy -No one denies that he had an army -Armies have lots of things that go boom and pow and kill people -That’s bad -No one denies that He might have used those high explosives for mining and demolition. Or, he might have made them all into really ridiculously enormous, but non-nuclear, bombs. What the hell is your point? ---
**Author:** ![ZebraShaSha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/eada6e/32.png) [@ZebraShaSha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZebraShaSha)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2004, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolves/270848/56 "2004-10-26T02:25:12Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > The _Chesapeake_ was beaten in a fair one-on-one fight by the HMS _Shannon_ in 1812. Perhaps you’re referring to the _Chesapeake_ - _Leopard_ affair a few years earlier? Ah, yea! Man I feel dumb. The sinking of the Chesapeake occured by the HMS Hornet in 1813 where as the Chesapeake - Leopard incident occured summerish 1807. I would classify it as terrorism because it was “a systematic form of terror used to coerce” American sailors into British ones - impressment. Oh, and the British had wolves of mass destruction. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2004, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolves/270848/57 "2004-10-26T02:28:20Z")
Also, Saddam would hardly have had anything guns that said “BANG” in Farsi, considering that is the language of **Iran**. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2004, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolves/270848/58 "2004-10-26T02:30:35Z")
> [@danceswithcats](#): > > While it is infortunate that a cache of ordinance such as this wasn’t properly secured, it makes more sense to hold battlefield command responsible than GWB. That is unless you’re the sort of person who blames the CEO of General Motors when a mechanic fails to tighten the lug nuts on a Buick and an accident is caused. I’m glad you posted this in the Pit so we can call it out as the crock of shit that it is. God, how totally fucking pathetic can you Bush defenders get?!?! Don’t you even have the least bit of shame?!? If I was President (and I’ve never been egotistical enough to believe I’d be a good one) the first thing that I would ask is how we are going to insure that any WMDs or other dangerous materials aren’t going to be **more** likely to end up in the hands of terrorists than if I hadn’t invaded (particularly when I have the CIA telling me that Saddam is very unlikely to give WMDs to terrorists like Osama himself…because whatever he is, he is not a fuckin’ idiot and he is a control freak). And, you had better believe that I would have made sure that such plans were going to be carried out successfully before I even considered invading. How pathetic that “The Buck Stops Here” has morphed into “Buck, What Buck?” > [@](#): > > One final point you’ve skipped over. Many people have beat their breasts and wailed about the war in Iraq, claiming that Saddam had no greater armament than a slingshot and a revolver that produces a flag reading “Bang” in Farsi. You don’t suppose that he meant to do something bad, mean, or unpleasant with this stuff, do you? :dubious: Ah…Actually, we all knew he had these explosives. In fact, the IAEA visited them to check them out again in late 2002. Are you through making shit up or do you want to go on and spread more lies about what people were saying? I can understand how lies have to come easily to one who defends this administration. Are all Bush supporters really reduced to this level of stupidity and ignorance? ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2004, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolves/270848/59 "2004-10-26T03:07:33Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > Are all Bush supporters really reduced to this level of stupidity and ignorance? Is that a trick question? Uh…yes. What do I win? (Love the wolves. They’re so beautiful) ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2004, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolves/270848/60 "2004-10-26T04:06:16Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > The buck stops at the CiC. Barring unforseeable gross misconduct from a single individual, anything bad that the military does reflects up the chain of command, just as anything good it does echoes up the chain of command. I never claimed otherwise. Although you may choose to dismiss it as an issue of semantics, I find a significant difference between bearing ultimate responsibility, and being directly causal, as was the accusation levied. > [@Raygun99](#): > > Also, Saddam would hardly have had anything guns that said “BANG” in Farsi, considering that is the language of Iran. Thank you for the correction. My bad. > [@jshore](#): > > If I was President (and I’ve never been egotistical enough to believe I’d be a good one) the first thing that I would ask is how we are going to insure that any WMDs or other dangerous materials aren’t going to be more likely to end up in the hands of terrorists than if I hadn’t invaded (particularly when I have the CIA telling me that Saddam is very unlikely to give WMDs to terrorists like Osama himself…because whatever he is, he is not a fuckin’ idiot and he is a control freak). And, you had better believe that\*\* I would have made sure that such plans were going to be carried out successfully before I even considered invading.\*\* (bolding mine) Do you believe that the forces actually carrying out the invasion went there without regard for issues such as this? Given that these stores were identified ahead of time, I’ve no reason to believe that securing same was not one of many priorities for the military. Unfortunately, it didn’t work out that way. Things go wrong in war, just as they do in peacetime. I don’t like it any more than you do, however I refuse to share your desire to crucify Dubya. The sinking of the USS Indianapolis was the result a Navy clusterfuck that killed almost 900 men, yet there is no reason to bash Harry Truman over the incident. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolves/270848.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wolves/270848.md?page=4)