# Woman and sexual abuse. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 11, 2011, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-and-sexual-abuse/577927 "2011-04-11T02:59:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-and-sexual-abuse/577927/61 "2011-04-13T17:09:43Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I can look up the cite later if anyone is interested, but there was a study back in the 1980s that involved interviewing convicted rapists. A lot of them didn’t see themselves as rapists – even when they hadn’t known their victim, had broken into her home or workplace, and had to threaten her with a weapon to get her to submit. And they weren’t denying the circumstances surrounding the rape, they just said it hadn’t been a rape because the victim “wanted it”. I expect a good number of them were lying outright to the researchers, if not themselves. And, of course, if they’re _not_ lying, that’s just another reason they need to be shot in the head. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-and-sexual-abuse/577927/62 "2011-04-13T17:11:44Z")
Why do you suspect that? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-and-sexual-abuse/577927/63 "2011-04-13T17:17:46Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Why do you suspect that? Because in my experience, humans have a great deal of capacity for rationalizing behaviors they find enjoyable or desirable but feel to be wrong. I don’t think a guy who beats or terrorizes a woman into submitting to his sexual advances has any real illusions about her wanting it, and a guy who has sex with an unconscious, drunken, or drugged woman for damn sure knows she didn’t consent. But because they don’t want to put themselves into the odious category _rapist_, they contort their retelling of the events, maybe even their memory of the events, so as to reduce or eliminate their moral culpability. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-and-sexual-abuse/577927/64 "2011-04-13T17:33:39Z")
Oh, I get you. I missed the part about lying to themselves. Reading the interviews that result from these kinds of studies, I definitely have never gotten the impression they were consciously lying to the researchers, but you’re right - that’s not to say that there aren’t all kinds of cognitive distortions going on to help them arrive at that point. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-and-sexual-abuse/577927/65 "2011-04-13T17:40:54Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Oh, I get you. I missed the part about lying to themselves. Reading the interviews that result from these kinds of studies, I definitely have never gotten the impression they were consciously lying to the researchers, but you’re right - that’s not to say that there aren’t all kinds of cognitive distortions going on to help them arrive at that point. I’ve read some of those studies, and while I don’t think the guys are UNIFORMLY lying to the researchers, I daresay a non-trivial number of them are, if only for the simple joy of deceit. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-and-sexual-abuse/577927/66 "2011-04-13T18:18:32Z")
> [@Elret](#): > > It’s the grey area that really makes it tricky. I don’t know if I have been sexually assaulted or not… > > When I was in high school, I was 18, sexually active and had slept (consensually) with 2 guys (not at once), both boyfriends. I went to a small party one night (while dating the second boyfriend, who didn’t attend). Drinking games were played, I got too drunk, and ended up semi-passed out on a bed. I was sort of drifting in and out and during that time, two very drunk guys had sex with me. I remember saying, “I have a boyfriend” (I think I said “No, I have a boyfriend”, but don’t clearly remember if I used the word “no” or not). The thing is, no I didn’t protest too hard because a) I was really, really drunk and barely with it, but also, the big problem, b) _it felt good_. I am not, and have not been for the last 17 years, ok with what happened, but I have continuously gone back and forth about what happened. > > I was certainly not the kind of girl who would do that… or was I? I mean, it felt good. A “good girl” wouldn’t have felt good. > I made the bad decision to have too much to drink and put myself in the situation… but does that give them the right take advantage of the situation? > They too were only 17 or 18 and very drunk… does that excuse their actions in any way? > I didn’t fight and scream NO… but I certainly never said yes. > > I really don’t know where I stand on it, even now. I can strongly say I was “taken advantage of”, but beyond that I really don’t know, and that makes it very hard to heal. Interesting story. Thanks for being open about it. I really don’t know what to think. Unfortunately I’m in no position to really know what to make of it. If you wanted to, could you have rejected the advancements more than you did? Or did you give into it because it felt pleasurable? Let’s say it didn’t feel good, were you still too drunk to even resist? ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-and-sexual-abuse/577927/67 "2011-04-13T18:29:05Z")
> [@Elret](#): > > They too were only 17 or 18 and very drunk… does that excuse their actions in any way? I think that’s a simple no! If I’ve got your story straight. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-and-sexual-abuse/577927/68 "2011-04-13T22:39:29Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > That was probably something by [Diana Scully](http://books.google.com/books?id=qObabPbmEgIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Diana+Scully&hl=en&ei=GtalTenhBuLs0gGS8qj-CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false). 20% of the people who admitted what they had done was rape still thought the victim enjoyed it. That’s her. I checked and the study I was thinking of was Diana Scully and Joseph Marolla’s “Convicted Rapists’ Vocabulary of Motive: Excuses and Justifications” (_Social Problems_, Vol. 31, No. 5, Jun., 1984, pp. 530-544). I think this must be the same study where the 20% figure you mention comes from. Here’s a summary I wrote for a previous rape-related thread: \*32 out of 114 convicted rapists who were interviewed in the study said that they had engaged in sexual acts with the victim but denied that it had been rape. (Another 35 denied having anything to do with the victim, and 47 admitted that they had committed rape.) But these men’s descriptions of the situation were inconsistent with both victim statements and the police reports – they often left out the fact that they’d pulled a weapon on the victim, that they had seriously injured the victim, or claimed that they knew the victim when they did not – and even in their own words many of these men would sound like rapists to any reasonable person. Several admitted that their victims had either said “no” or resisted physically, but said they knew the victim had “really” wanted it. One man told a fanciful story about how his victim had stripped off her clothes and enthusiastically invited him to have sex with her – while he was (by his own admission) robbing her home! Of the 32 who said that what they had done wasn’t rape, 22 claimed that “once the rape began, the victim relaxed and enjoyed it”. Even with the convicted rapists who admitted to the researchers that what they had done was rape, 9 of 47 claimed that the victim had enjoyed the experience. …One “denier” said “All women say ‘no’ when they mean ‘yes’”. This was a man who kidnapped and raped a 15 year old girl at knifepoint. One of the “admitters” said it had taken him years to realize that what he had done really was rape, saying “I just asked her nicely and she didn’t resist.” This may technically have been true, but it was also true that he didn’t merely ask her nicely, he “used a bayonet to threaten his victim, an employee of the store he had been robbing.”\* ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-and-sexual-abuse/577927/69 "2011-04-14T02:29:22Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > I don’t know what to say, or what to do about this situation. It’s just sad. I feel helpless Beat him up? I’m not trying to put on some faux internet tough guy schtick, but if I’ve found out one of my family members suffered like that and the person responsible got off scot free, I wouldn’t be able to restrain myself ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-and-sexual-abuse/577927/70 "2011-04-14T13:12:50Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Beat him up? > > I’m not trying to put on some faux internet tough guy schtick, but if I’ve found out one of my family members suffered like that and the person responsible got off scot free, I wouldn’t be able to restrain myself My oldest and dearest friend was brutalized, kidnapped, & raped some years back. Her assailant was known to her — a family “friend” – and I really wanted to kill the guy, not just beat him up. But though that is an understandable and common impulse, it’s still basically selfish. I’d have been putting my desire for vengeance ahead of what my friend needed, which was the support of the people she loved and was loved by. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-and-sexual-abuse/577927/71 "2011-04-14T17:57:27Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > My oldest and dearest friend was brutalized, kidnapped, & raped some years back. Her assailant was known to her — a family “friend” – and I really wanted to kill the guy, not just beat him up. But though that is an understandable and common impulse, it’s still basically selfish. I’d have been putting my desire for vengeance ahead of what my friend needed, which was the support of the people she loved and was loved by. I agree. Let the courts take care of it. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-and-sexual-abuse/577927/72 "2011-04-14T23:00:22Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Agreed (although I don’t think this’ll be terribly controversial; not too many folks will come out to take a strong stand in favor of sexual abuse). As a man, I figure I have some responsibilities, as follows: > > 1. Don’t commit sexual abuse. This one’s the obvious one, I guess. > 2. Don’t engage in behaviors that trivialize or condone sexual abuse. What such behaviors might be is up for debate, but I have some personal guidelines. > 3. If I’m ever in charge of an adolescent boy (as a dad, as a teacher, etc.), make sure that boy knows that sexual violence can cause harm equivalent to other forms of violence, in many cases much worse. Make sure that boy knows what constitutes appropriate behavior. > > There’s no reason for me to feel guilt over someone else’s actions based on our shared chromosomal structure, but there are occasions where my relationships with other guys offer me an opportunity to, in some very small way, lessen the risk of sexual abuse. I have some other ones that go for men AND women. Don’t play games with strangers regarding consent. Don’t say no and mean yes and/or don’t take no to mean yes. Don’t say yes when you mean no. If someone else wants to play those games, walk away. Sure, you might not get to have sex with them, but that’s not the worst thing that can happen. Don’t assume that someone ugly or fat or toothless or old or strong can’t be a victim of sexual assault. Don’t assume that someone famous or rich or attractive or talented or weak can’t perpetrate sexual assault. Sometimes people change their minds. Tough. If someone’s judgment is impaired and you can tell (and don’t be cute about it and try NOT to tell), don’t decide “Hey, this is my chance to have sex with this person who would never agree to it sober/clean/while not grieving the death of his spouse/while not hanging from hooks in the garage.” ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-and-sexual-abuse/577927/73 "2011-04-15T22:41:46Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > My oldest and dearest friend was brutalized, kidnapped, & raped some years back. Her assailant was known to her — a family “friend” – and I really wanted to kill the guy, not just beat him up. But though that is an understandable and common impulse, it’s still basically selfish. I’d have been putting my desire for vengeance ahead of what my friend needed, which was the support of the people she loved and was loved by. There was a poster a few months back who was livid over someone raping a friend of his (I think it might have been in Spain, and I think the assailant might have been someone she’d gone out with once or twice, IIRC). Clearly he was full of rage, as, I think, anyone would be. It’s natural to plot revenge. But as so many people pointed out, that was not what she needed. She didn’t need to see a friend possibly go to jail, and she didn’t need to see another example of male aggression up close and personal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-and-sexual-abuse/577927.md?page=3)