# Woman Denied French Citizenship for Refusing Handshake **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 20, 2018, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-denied-french-citizenship-for-refusing-handshake/812826 "2018-04-20T22:28:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ea5d25/32.png) [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-denied-french-citizenship-for-refusing-handshake/812826/141 "2018-05-01T15:44:12Z")
OP here. Can we please, PLEASE, not have this devolve into **ZPG Zealot** screaming rape and everyone else trying to pick apart the logical underpinnings of her worldview? It’s ruined too many threads already and I’m interested in this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-denied-french-citizenship-for-refusing-handshake/812826/142 "2018-05-01T15:47:46Z")
Ok, sorry. But it’s so much fun mocking the illogical underpinnings of a worldview. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-denied-french-citizenship-for-refusing-handshake/812826/143 "2018-05-01T16:30:22Z")
Maybe this thread is a more appropriate place for that discussion? [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=843400](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=843400) ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-denied-french-citizenship-for-refusing-handshake/812826/144 "2018-05-01T16:45:13Z")
> [@Warm\_blood](#): > > Translation: I have no real argument so I will accuse my opponent of being racist just because they disagree with me even though they said nothing remotely racist or bigoted because I’m an immature twat. > > Perhaps Tumblr would be a better fit for you then this board. > : This is an official warning for personal insults and being a jerk. If you can’t be civil bow out of this thread and take it to the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-denied-french-citizenship-for-refusing-handshake/812826/145 "2018-05-01T16:47:09Z")
> [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](#): > > OP here. > > Can we please, PLEASE, not have this devolve into **ZPG Zealot** screaming rape and everyone else trying to pick apart the logical underpinnings of her worldview? > > It’s ruined too many threads already and I’m interested in this discussion. Agreed. ZPG Zealot you have made your point. Any further discussion about your personal views on handshakes will be considered a hijack and will get you a warning. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-denied-french-citizenship-for-refusing-handshake/812826/146 "2018-05-01T17:42:58Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Maybe this thread is a more appropriate place for that discussion? > > [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=843400](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=843400) Or better: Here, in the pit, where I commented on it. [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=20934104#post20934104](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=20934104#post20934104) I am interested in this hijack, I hope the mods don’t mind my pointing to an alternate place to discuss it. ---
**Author:** ![Warm\_blood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Warm\_blood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Warm_blood)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-denied-french-citizenship-for-refusing-handshake/812826/147 "2018-05-04T04:27:15Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > This is an official warning for personal insults and being a jerk. If you can’t be civil bow out of this thread and take it to the Pit. Er, I got a warning for name-calling yet you’re doing the exact same thing as a mod? :dubious: Does this not fall under the definition of hypocrisy? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-denied-french-citizenship-for-refusing-handshake/812826/148 "2018-05-04T07:27:15Z")
I searched for the court decision, but it didn’t shed much light in the issue, because it was very short and lacked any detailed reasoning. Basically, it just says : -such a behavior, in a symbolic place and time points at a lack of assimilation, so the prime minister didn’t misunderstood the law when he denied her citizenship -this law doesn’t have the intent or effect of curtailing freedom of religion, so it isn’t in contradiction with fundamental freedoms, european convention, etc… It’s not a word for word translation, but it’s really as short as that and without anymore explanation of the court reasoning. By the way, she didn’t refuse to shake hands with an immigration official but with a representant of the state and a local elected official both present at the ceremony. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-denied-french-citizenship-for-refusing-handshake/812826/149 "2018-05-04T07:34:44Z")
Too late to edit : For interested French speakers,[here’s the court decision](https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichJuriAdmin.do?idTexte=CETATEXT000036791217) And the relevant paragraphs are : > [@Conseil d'Etat](#): > > 1. Considérant, en deuxième lieu, qu’ainsi qu’il a été dit, lors de la cérémonie d’accueil dans la nationalité française organisée à la préfecture de l’Isère, Mme A…a expressément refusé de serrer la main du secrétaire général de la préfecture ainsi que celle d’un élu d’une commune du département venus l’accueillir ; qu’en estimant qu’un tel comportement, dans un lieu et à un moment symboliques, révélait un défaut d’assimilation, le Premier ministre n’a pas fait une inexacte application des dispositions de l’article 21-4 du code civil ; > > 2. Considérant, en troisième lieu, que le décret attaqué n’a ni pour objet ni pour effet de porter atteinte à la liberté religieuse de l’intéressée ; que, par suite, il ne méconnaît ni l’article 1er de la loi du 9 décembre 1905 concernant la séparation des Eglises et de l’Etat, ni les stipulations de l’article 9 de la convention européenne de sauvegarde des droits de l’homme et des libertés fondamentales ; The court also rejected another argument of the plaintiff, but it would rather fall in the “technicalities” category, so it’s not really relevant here. But the way, she didn’t refuse to shake hands with an immigration officer, but with a representant of the state and with a local elected official, both present at the ceremony. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-denied-french-citizenship-for-refusing-handshake/812826.md?page=7)