# Woman fined $1.9 million for illegal song downloads **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 19, 2009, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fined-1-9-million-for-illegal-song-downloads/500257 "2009-06-19T02:27:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Harmonious\_Discord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fined-1-9-million-for-illegal-song-downloads/500257/21 "2009-06-19T13:41:14Z")
I do understand that they are breaking a law. The current penalty is way out of proportion to the crime. The problem is congress gets contributions from the RIAA so will increase the penalties if anything. ---
**Author:** ![Sigmagirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c89c15/32.png) [@Sigmagirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigmagirl)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fined-1-9-million-for-illegal-song-downloads/500257/22 "2009-06-19T13:41:41Z")
Does she get to keep the songs?:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fined-1-9-million-for-illegal-song-downloads/500257/23 "2009-06-19T13:52:04Z")
> [@Sigmagirl](#): > > Does she get to keep the songs?:rolleyes: Don’t be silly. They’ll be given back to whoever she stole them from. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fined-1-9-million-for-illegal-song-downloads/500257/24 "2009-06-19T14:09:48Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > According to the story I read, the woman posted 1,700 songs for shared downloading, but the prosecution reduced it to 24 for the trial. 1,700 songs @ $80,000 = 136,000,000 dollars. Such a a result would have been ridicules beyond belief. The greedy selfish assholes aren’t that brave yet. Correct if I’m wrong but in civil suits there isn’t a prosecution, just a litigant and a defendant, or is the government so sold out and corrupt a private company has police powers? Unrelated to this response but does anyone have the name of the actual company that brought the suit? Companies use the RIAA as a hedge for bad PR. The evil fuckers responsible deserve to have the light shined on their name so we know who to avoid. ---
**Author:** ![Ace309](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ace309/32/1050_2.png) [@Ace309](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ace309)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fined-1-9-million-for-illegal-song-downloads/500257/25 "2009-06-19T14:25:16Z")
> [@alterego](#): > > My take on this case, or general class of cases: > > 1. The defendant is guilty > 2. The award is unconstitutional > 3. It will eventually go to the Supreme Court Out of curiosity, what’s the basis for your opinion of the constitutionality of the damages? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fined-1-9-million-for-illegal-song-downloads/500257/26 "2009-06-19T14:30:54Z")
Shouldn’t it be the responsibility of the plaintiff to prove that you have never purchased those pieces of music before? I lost a ton of CDs, am I not allowed to have any of that music because I no longer have the hard copies? What about stuff I have on vinyl? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fined-1-9-million-for-illegal-song-downloads/500257/27 "2009-06-19T14:47:55Z")
> [@Ace309](#): > > Out of curiosity, what’s the basis for your opinion of the constitutionality of the damages? Cruel and **unusual** punishment? ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fined-1-9-million-for-illegal-song-downloads/500257/28 "2009-06-19T14:55:46Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Shouldn’t it be the responsibility of the plaintiff to prove that you have never purchased those pieces of music before? I lost a ton of CDs, am I not allowed to have any of that music because I no longer have the hard copies? What about stuff I have on vinyl? Does no one actually READ the article, or even the thread??? Once again: **It’s not that she downloaded them, it’s that she _made them available for everyone one else to download_.** So millions of copies could have been downloaded by other people from her posted offerings. It’s not like stealing one CD, it’s more like buying one CD and then burning a bajillion copies and handing them out for free, so those music fans don’t need to buy their own. Do I think the award is absurd? Yes. But she was given ample opportunity to settle out of court for less than $2,000, instead she tried a “Lalalalalalalala you can’t beat me, you can’t beat me lalalalalalala…” approach. And now she’s still saying, “Yeah, well, it’s not like they’ll ever collect anyway.” She sounds like an irresponsible bitch who doesn’t want to be held accountable for the stupid things she did. She could have said, “Yeah, what I did was wrong. I didn’t think it was hurting anyone, I’ll pay the smaller fee and won’t do it again.” Instead she needlessly dragged this out for years. It’s like going to the Supreme Court to fight a speeding ticket when you were, in fact, speeding. I think she was awarded the huge sum, only because she was wasting everyone’s time and this was a way for them to say “Bite me, lady!” ---
**Author:** ![hende](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/aca169/32.png) [@hende](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hende)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fined-1-9-million-for-illegal-song-downloads/500257/29 "2009-06-19T15:00:56Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Shouldn’t it be the responsibility of the plaintiff to prove that you have never purchased those pieces of music before? I lost a ton of CDs, am I not allowed to have any of that music because I no longer have the hard copies? What about stuff I have on vinyl? I could be wrong here, but my understanding is that the case wasn’t about her downloading the songs. It was the fact that she made those songs available for others to download. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fined-1-9-million-for-illegal-song-downloads/500257/30 "2009-06-19T15:04:19Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Shouldn’t it be the responsibility of the plaintiff to prove that you have never purchased those pieces of music before? I lost a ton of CDs, am I not allowed to have any of that music because I no longer have the hard copies? What about stuff I have on vinyl? Well, remember, the problem wasn’t so much she had the music. The problem was she made the song available for download to other people, so the question of whether she legally owned the music or not I don’t think really matters. On preview: what was said above. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fined-1-9-million-for-illegal-song-downloads/500257/31 "2009-06-19T15:04:56Z")
Just by making her an example, they are admitting she is not getting fair treatment by the justice system. They are supposedly dispensing justice in a fair manner. As soon as they increase fines to send a message, she no longer is getting even treatment. She is being singled out. That is wrong. Perhaps they should give her the death penalty. The crime does not deserve that ,but neither does it merit that kind of fine. But that would send a message too. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fined-1-9-million-for-illegal-song-downloads/500257/32 "2009-06-19T15:16:11Z")
I’d tell them they weren’t getting so much as a carrot, or the steam off my piss, and they’d better lock me up. I’d then make myself the most awkward prisoner the system has ever seen and cost them as much as I could. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fined-1-9-million-for-illegal-song-downloads/500257/33 "2009-06-19T15:17:39Z")
> [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](#): > > Does no one actually READ the article, or even the thread??? > > Once again: **It’s not that she downloaded them, it’s that she _made them available for everyone one else to download_.** So millions of copies could have been downloaded by other people from her posted offerings. It’s not like stealing one CD, it’s more like buying one CD and then burning a bajillion copies and handing them out for free, so those music fans don’t need to buy their own. Have cite a “bajillion” people downloaded from her specifically? Remember civil suits aren’t “guilty until proven innocent” but preponderance of evidence. Please meet that burden when producing your cite. > [@](#): > > I think she was awarded the huge sum, only because she was wasting everyone’s time and this was a way for them to say “Bite me, lady!” Again, she deserved to have her life ruined because she exercised her rights in court? The jury was out of line and human pieces of trash. There’s no excuse for what they did. There’s no understanding. Keeping in mind beating a man to death gets you probation in PA when weighing how just the verdict was. Frostwire \> cold blooded murder, according to the courts. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fined-1-9-million-for-illegal-song-downloads/500257/34 "2009-06-19T15:52:24Z")
> [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](#): > > Once again: **It’s not that she downloaded them, it’s that she _made them available for everyone one else to download_.** So millions of copies could have been downloaded by other people from her posted offerings. It’s not like stealing one CD, it’s more like buying one CD and then burning a bajillion copies and handing them out for free, so those music fans don’t need to buy their own. Not to hijack too much, but… Last fall I played a friend’s band’s CD for my brother. He liked it so much that copied all of the songs to his laptop. For our mother’s birthday last week, he gave her a copy of the CD – that he burned himself. Those are royalties that my friend will never see. It’s embarassing. It’s kind of like when a former GF wrote a book. All of her friends asked “Can I borrow it sometime?” Uh, no, but you can buy it. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fined-1-9-million-for-illegal-song-downloads/500257/35 "2009-06-19T15:52:34Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Unrelated to this response but does anyone have the name of the actual company that brought the suit? Companies use the RIAA as a hedge for bad PR. The evil fuckers responsible deserve to have the light shined on their name so we know who to avoid. Per another article: “The companies suing are subsidiaries of all four major recording companies, Warner Music Group Corp., Vivendi SA’s Universal Music Group, EMI Group PLC and Sony Corp.'s Sony Music Entertainment.” ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fined-1-9-million-for-illegal-song-downloads/500257/36 "2009-06-19T16:36:33Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Have cite a “bajillion” people downloaded from her specifically? Remember civil suits aren’t “guilty until proven innocent” but preponderance of evidence. Please meet that burden when producing your cite. That is completely **not my point** , so piss off. I’m trying to point out that people seem to be really confusing the issue of what exactly she did and the potential financial damages that can be incurred by the rightful owners of the copyright as a result. (And I’m agreeing that the fine is utterly absurd). There is so much outrage singing the refrain: “All she did was download music without paying for it!” when that is in fact not the issue. She was essentially _distributing_ free copies. If you compare it to a criminal, rather than civil offense, think of it this way: If you get busted for buying pot, you’ll get in shit. If you get busted for _dealing_ pot, you’ll get in way, WAY bigger shit. While the two crimes are related, they are distinctly different in the way they are treated, depending on whether you were buying a joint to smoke it yourself, or distributing kilos of the stuff to whoever wanted it. This woman’s case is a civil action, but analogous. And yes, typically in civil cases, the plaintiff needs to demonstrate actual (or very reliable estimate of) damages when the award is calculated When the RIAA offered to settle for under $2,000 that was probably closer to a reasonable estimate of actual damages. But then with lawyers racking up enough in fees to be able to put their kids, grand kids, great grand kids and in-laws through college… Well, legal fees often get lumped in, so if the plaintiff is going to win, the award will just get bigger and bigger. Honestly, I don’t know what the woman was thinking or why her lawyer agreed to keep going, when their best defense was “Maybe my husband did it!” Again, comparing it to the aforementioned criminal case, it’s like getting busted for dealing and then saying: “Oh, this pot’s not mine. I was just holding it for somebody.” ---
**Author:** ![CaveMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cavemike/32/16379_2.png) [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fined-1-9-million-for-illegal-song-downloads/500257/37 "2009-06-19T16:37:08Z")
> [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](#): > > Do I think the award is absurd? Yes. But she was given ample opportunity to settle out of court for less than $2,000, instead she tried a “Lalalalalalalala you can’t beat me, you can’t beat me lalalalalalala…” approach. And now she’s still saying, “Yeah, well, it’s not like they’ll ever collect anyway.” She sounds like an irresponsible bitch who doesn’t want to be held accountable for the stupid things she did. > > She could have said, “Yeah, what I did was wrong. I didn’t think it was hurting anyone, I’ll pay the smaller fee and won’t do it again.” Instead she needlessly dragged this out for years. It’s like going to the Supreme Court to fight a speeding ticket when you were, in fact, speeding. > > I think she was awarded the huge sum, only because she was wasting everyone’s time and this was a way for them to say “Bite me, lady!” What is your point exactly? That she deserves this settlement? That you think she is a ‘bitch’ and so it is ok? That the settlement of a civil suit should be based on her admitting her mistake? Or that the settlement should be higher for people that ‘waste everyone’s time’? ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fined-1-9-million-for-illegal-song-downloads/500257/38 "2009-06-19T16:45:19Z")
> [@CaveMike](#): > > What is your point exactly? That she deserves this settlement? That you think she is a ‘bitch’ and so it is ok? That the settlement of a civil suit should be based on her admitting her mistake? Or that the settlement should be higher for people that ‘waste everyone’s time’? See above. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fined-1-9-million-for-illegal-song-downloads/500257/39 "2009-06-19T16:45:19Z")
> [@Earthworm\_Jim](#): > > Are you suggesting the “I will mercilessly pursue, prosecute, and destroy anyone who illegally downloads music off the internet!” platform should / would be successful? Of course it shouldn’t be successful, and it probably wouldn’t be. But when you have a big group like the RIAA painting downloaders as hardened thieves stealing the food right out of the mouths of hard working musicians’ babies, and no competing group pushing back (at least none that’s as well-connected and well-funded), who wants to be seen as standing up for the criminals? That’s why most legislators would much rather remain agnostic on the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fined-1-9-million-for-illegal-song-downloads/500257/40 "2009-06-19T16:50:38Z")
Missed the edit. ETA: Do I think she should have bit hit with a penalty of that magnitude? Of course not. Do I feel sorry for her? No. The longer you tie things up in court unnecessarily, the greater the risk that you’ll face an award that is includes all the legal fees, and you may face a shellout that is much more punitive. Bottom line: pick your battles wisely. She did not. If you really didn’t do anything wrong, fight away. But if you did, don’t try to weasel out of it because it can backfire. (And she won’t be paying anyway because she has next to no assets.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fined-1-9-million-for-illegal-song-downloads/500257.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fined-1-9-million-for-illegal-song-downloads/500257.md?page=3)