# Woman fired for eating pork **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 4, 2004, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fired-for-eating-pork/258323 "2004-08-04T17:50:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fired-for-eating-pork/258323/141 "2004-08-06T16:46:44Z")
> [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > Guess what. If you do something and it pisses of 99% of your co-workers, and you’re asked not to do it 'cus it pisses everyone off, and is a really big deal for them, and you insist on doing it again and again so your “personal freedoms” won’t be trampled on, then you’re an asshole. The company operates in a country where the vast majority of people are non-Muslim. The owner should have made accommodations for his non-Muslim employees. If a non-Muslim business owner has a business in a Muslim country, don’t you think he should make accommodations for his Muslim employees, such as a halal kitchen, or accommodating for daily prayers, even if his employees were majority non-Muslim? It’s simply a courtesy. In this case, the business owner was not accommodating of his non-Muslim employees. Therefore, he’s the asshole. He didn’t have to make such a strict policy and didn’t have to resort to firing someone. Compromises could have taken place to be fair to everyone. ---
**Author:** ![cher3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/da6949/32.png) [@cher3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cher3)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fired-for-eating-pork/258323/142 "2004-08-06T16:59:27Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Also from the article: > > “They’re making it seem that if you don’t follow a certain set of religious practices and beliefs then you’re going to be terminated and that’s wrong,” Nejame (attorney for the company) said. “If this case prevails, what it will mean – the implications of this case – is it will eliminate accommodations of religion.” > > What, is this guy high? What is he saying? The muslims in the group are perfectly free to practice their religion. No one has even hinted that they would be force-fed pork. The only religious beliefs that were compromised were those of the pork-eater. > > It’s clear who the assholes are. And they don’t have any Jimmy Dean’s in their freezer. Her religious beliefs were not compromised an any way. There is no Holy Pepperoni Day in the Catholic church. They requested that she refrain from a single totally non-essential activity on company property, because it was offensive to the majority of employees there. They asked her nicely once, and she did it again. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fired-for-eating-pork/258323/143 "2004-08-06T17:06:22Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > The only religious beliefs that were compromised were those of the pork-eater. Is pork-eating a religion? Is there a religion that mandates eating pork for lunch? How about this: I am employed at _Jesus Saves, Brake Repairs, Inc_. The owner and the majority of the staff are practicing Christians, in fact they practice some othordox branch of Christianity. They don’t mind me being an atheist and they refrain from trying to convert me. One day I start singing Michael Jackson’s latest hit _Rain Fire on Them Christians Belzeebu My Dark Lord_. The owner tells me to please refrain from singing ‘that’ song at work. I could sing any other song until my voice is hoarse if I so wish, or sing MJ’s latest hit outside the company any time. I do it again, another warning. I do it again and get fired… was I been a jerk? ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fired-for-eating-pork/258323/144 "2004-08-06T17:09:09Z")
> [@cher3](#): > > There is no Holy Pepperoni Day in the Catholic church. Now, if they had told her not to eat mackerel… ---
**Author:** ![Zog\_10](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c57346/32.png) [@Zog\_10](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zog_10)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fired-for-eating-pork/258323/145 "2004-08-06T17:20:08Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > \ > > And regarding being an asshole, turn the tables and tell me who’s the asshole. If I employ 100 people and I tell the one muslim he can’t wear religious headgear because it’s disruptive, and he continues to wear it, who’s in the wrong? > > \ Very possibly, the answer here is both. Clearly, the employee who is told he is in violation of some workplace rule (regardless of the rule itself) and then continues to violate the rule is wrong. However, the employer might also be wrong if the rule itself is wrong (that is, if the rule is illegal or discriminatory or whatever). The employee’s recourse in such a situation is to escalate their concern to higher management within the company or to an appropriate government body (the EEOC comes to mind) to have the rule changed. This may result in the employee having to quit their job or submit to the rule until such time as the rule changes. I grant you that this can be a hardship and is real pain, but continuing to violate the rule in some sort of “protest action” seems a little silly to me. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fired-for-eating-pork/258323/146 "2004-08-06T17:30:43Z")
> [@cher3](#): > > Her religious beliefs were not compromised an any way. There is no Holy Pepperoni Day in the Catholic church. They requested that she refrain from a single totally non-essential activity on company property, because it was offensive to the majority of employees there. They asked her nicely once, and she did it again. By forcing her to observe THEIR religious practice, she was denied her own freedom of religious expression (which may or may not have been NO religious expression). They said it was based on a religious tenet. By their own admission it is religion-based. They made no accommodation for her. There may or may not be a religion that involves pork. Just because it isn’t one of the “big five” doesn’t mean one doesn’t exist. If a religion can exclude foods, they can INCLUDE them as well. And as far as non-essential goes, EVERYTHING in religion is non-essential. You can talk yourself into the grand importance of a ritual, but the avoidance of pork is a religious invention – not essential. Beside the fact that they weren’t being asked to heat her BLT. They were simply asked to tolerate her choice of food. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fired-for-eating-pork/258323/147 "2004-08-06T17:34:35Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > Explaining a situation where keeping one’s hair tied up is a safety issue. [An example](http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/photo/archive/photo32.htm) > > That is different from what you had been asking though. You made a blanket statement and I pointed out at least one situation where I wouldn’t think it inappropriate. I was pointing out there were times where a hair restraint could be a legitimate safety issue. > > If it were as you’re describing now, I’d agree he’s asking her to show an outward obeyance to Islamic law beyond what would seem to me to be reasonalbe to expect of non-Muslim persons. > > OTOH, would you think that a middle eastern style restaurant could require serving women to wear **Muslim-style headscarves** as part of the ambiance that the owner is trying to present? Whether the workers share the religious beliefs or not? I’m afraid, here, I’d think it would be a legitimate dress code, honestly. It’s called a uniform. Employers are allowed to ask their employees to wear uniforms. Even the tinest restaurants have some sort of unifying t-shirt or apron. It’s not the same thing at all. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fired-for-eating-pork/258323/148 "2004-08-06T17:42:48Z")
> [@cher3](#): > > I’m not sure why I’m defending these people at all. I think it’s a pretty dumb rule and no one I know with dietary restrictions has ever tried to force them on me(and I’ve worked with Mormons, Jewish people, vegans, diabetics, and recovering alcoholics, sometimes all gathered around the same table.) The only exception was an HR manager who overrode everyone else’s restaurant choice one year for the Christmas party because she was on Atkins. I once worked for a catholic (family business). For the holiday party, he ordered a ham. I reminded him that out of the 50 employees, there were at least two jews. He basically said “tough shit…we’re having ham and only ham”. No offer to accommodate her religious practice with a small order of chicken or meatballs. Was this discriminatory? > [@](#): > > We don’t know all the details, mainly because of the slanted nature of the article. BUT, if putting pig parts in the communal microwave or fridge was upsetting to the majority of employees, then it shouldn’t be surprising that a manager would do something about it to keep the general peace. > > And, as others have pointed out, eating a BLT is not an expression of religion, as wearing a headscarf or cross would be. And again…please read the article. She was forbidden to bring pork on the company premises. That means she was not allowed to pick up a canned ham on the way to work. She was not allowed to pick up a breakfast biscuit on her way in the office, even if she consumed it in the parking lot in her car. She was not allowed to sit outside on a summer day and eat a ham sandwich. This has absolutely nothing to do with contaminating kitchen utensils. It has everything to do with religious butt-inski-ism. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fired-for-eating-pork/258323/149 "2004-08-06T17:43:04Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > It’s called a uniform. Employers are allowed to ask their employees to wear uniforms. Even the tinest restaurants have some sort of unifying t-shirt or apron. It’s not the same thing at all. The point that I’d been making, which **nyctea scandiaca** seemed to understand, was that the original question about ‘requiring female employees to wear scarves’ was not specific enough to allow for an equally blanket approval or condemnation. That specific scenario was simply to illustrate where a business would have a completely legitimate reason for insisting on workers following a visible, or outward, part of the code of a specific religion. By the way, **Kalhoun** , how do you feel about freedom of religion as being used to defend people who are fired for not being able to work on their Sabbath? ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fired-for-eating-pork/258323/150 "2004-08-06T17:44:14Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > By forcing her to observe THEIR religious practice, she was denied her own freedom of religious expression (which may or may not have been NO religious expression). They said it was based on a religious tenet. By their own admission it is religion-based. They made no accommodation for her. Then she can argue in court that Catholism mandates she eat pork every day for lunch _in the company’s ground_. > [@](#): > > There may or may not be a religion that involves pork. Just because it isn’t one of the “big five” doesn’t mean one doesn’t exist. If a religion can exclude foods, they can INCLUDE them as well. She is Catholic, I was raised Catholic and I don’t remember anything about eating pork been part of our religious tenets. > [@](#): > > And as far as non-essential goes, EVERYTHING in religion is non-essential. You can talk yourself into the grand importance of a ritual, but the avoidance of pork is a religious invention – not essential. Beside the fact that they weren’t being asked to heat her BLT. They were simply asked to tolerate her choice of food. Don’t you see the irony? You are arguing that her ‘non-essential and still unexistant ritual of eating pork for lunch ‘in the company’s grounds’ is more important than the MAJORITY OF THE EMPLOYEES’ right to also follow another non-essential ritual. You can’t have it both ways. If her religion (and she is Catholic) mandated eating pork every day then she should have talked about it with her employer. This seems not to be the case. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fired-for-eating-pork/258323/151 "2004-08-06T17:49:40Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > Is pork-eating a religion? Is there a religion that mandates eating pork for lunch? > > How about this: I am employed at _Jesus Saves, Brake Repairs, Inc_. The owner and the majority of the staff are practicing Christians, in fact they practice some othordox branch of Christianity. They don’t mind me being an atheist and they refrain from trying to convert me. One day I start singing Michael Jackson’s latest hit _Rain Fire on Them Christians Belzeebu My Dark Lord_. The owner tells me to please refrain from singing ‘that’ song at work. I could sing any other song until my voice is hoarse if I so wish, or sing MJ’s latest hit outside the company any time. I do it again, another warning. I do it again and get fired… was I been a jerk? It’s intrusive, where eating a BLT is not. The muslims were offended by the CONCEPT of pork…to the point that they tried to control what a non-muslim ate. It’s oppressive. What would the muslims have done if she decided to take communion in the lunchroom every day? Would that have been acceptable? I sincerely doubt they’d have sat still for that. What if she was a jew and wore traditional religous symbols like a star of David or a prayer shawl? Do you see these people allowing that? ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fired-for-eating-pork/258323/152 "2004-08-06T17:59:47Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > What if she was a jew and wore traditional religous symbols like a star of David or a prayer shawl? Do you see these people allowing that? Heh, I don’t see these people hiring Jews in the first place, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fired-for-eating-pork/258323/153 "2004-08-06T18:02:36Z")
> [@nyctea scandiaca](#): > > Heh, I don’t see these people hiring Jews in the first place, IMHO. I don’t know. They wouldn’t have to worry about observant Jews bringing in pork. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fired-for-eating-pork/258323/154 "2004-08-06T18:03:57Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > It’s intrusive, where eating a BLT is not. The muslims were offended by the CONCEPT of pork…to the point that they tried to control what a non-muslim ate. It’s oppressive. What would the muslims have done if she decided to take communion in the lunchroom every day? Would that have been acceptable? I sincerely doubt they’d have sat still for that. What if she was a jew and wore traditional religous symbols like a star of David or a prayer shawl? Do you see these people allowing that? How about I put the Great Satan 2004 Calendar on my desk and after many requests to take off the office grounds I don’t and get fired? Is there an specific problem because they were Muslims? Or would you be agains my hypothetical Jesus Saves, Brake Repairs Inc. too? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fired-for-eating-pork/258323/155 "2004-08-06T18:03:56Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > The point that I’d been making, which **nyctea scandiaca** seemed to understand, was that the original question about ‘requiring female employees to wear scarves’ was not specific enough to allow for an equally blanket approval or condemnation. That specific scenario was simply to illustrate where a business would have a completely legitimate reason for insisting on workers following a visible, or outward, part of the code of a specific religion. I would consider this “costuming” in the case of an ethnic restaurant. This isn’t religious. > [@](#): > > By the way, **Kalhoun** , how do you feel about freedom of religion as being used to defend people who are fired for not being able to work on their Sabbath? For starters, I think it is the employees responsibility to make a religious limitation known up front. After all, they are a minority and cannot assume the rest of the world knows of or practices their limitation. If the employer agrees to hire them knowing they need their holy day off, they should not be allowed to dismiss them for that reason. They also have the right to hire someone who is qualified for the job. If they must have someone working on any religion’s sabbath, then they are free to hire people who qualify for that schedule. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fired-for-eating-pork/258323/156 "2004-08-06T18:10:27Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > How about I put the Great Satan 2004 Calendar on my desk and after many requests to take off the office grounds I don’t and get fired? > > Is there an specific problem because they were Muslims? Or would you be agains my hypothetical Jesus Saves, Brake Repairs Inc. too? Being fired for having a religious calendar would be wrong. Whether it was Satanic or Wiccan or Christian or Jewish or Muslim. If they were targeting the Satanist specifically because of her religion, that would be wrong. Now if the office forbade _ **all** _ personal calendars or personal effects or all religious items, that’s permissible. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fired-for-eating-pork/258323/157 "2004-08-06T18:12:31Z")
If it’s in your cubical (which is a private area), I’ve got no problem with it. People decorate their cubes with all sorts of personal expression. I think it will offend the religious folks (but hell…what doesn’t?). I don’t think you should get fired for it. I happen to work for a gigantic retailer who INSISTS on the religious choir belting out baby jesus tunes in the common area of our campus. I’m annoyed by the assumption that all 5,000 of us want to hear someone else’s religious beliefs blaring through the atrium during our noon meal. _Infinitely_ more intrusive than a ham sandwich. Yet, I continue to get the fuck over it. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fired-for-eating-pork/258323/158 "2004-08-06T18:14:46Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > For starters, I think it is the employees responsibility to make a religious limitation known up front. After all, they are a minority and cannot assume the rest of the world knows of or practices their limitation. Ah, but she did not! Or did she, in which case she was lying because Catholiscm does not mandate its adepts to eat pork for lunch. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fired-for-eating-pork/258323/159 "2004-08-06T18:16:19Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Yet, I continue to get the fuck over it. Why can’t she get the fuck over the non-pork rule? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fired-for-eating-pork/258323/160 "2004-08-06T18:52:24Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > Ah, but she did not! Or did she, in which case she was lying because Catholiscm does not mandate its adepts to eat pork for lunch. It’s not her religion that is limiting! It’s her employer’s religion that is limiting what she can or cannot do! His religion is oppressing her freedom of choice (freedom of non-religion or religion). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fired-for-eating-pork/258323.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-fired-for-eating-pork/258323.md?page=9)