# Woman held in male prison; her protests that she is female are ignored and mocked **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 16, 2007, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-held-in-male-prison-her-protests-that-she-is-female-are-ignored-and-mocked/415820 "2007-08-16T16:12:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2007, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-held-in-male-prison-her-protests-that-she-is-female-are-ignored-and-mocked/415820/1 "2007-08-16T16:12:29Z")
In DC, a woman was held in the male detention unit, despite her protests that she was female, despite the fact that she was strip-searched, and despite the fact that a doctor declared her to be female. Officers mocked her and ignored her statements that she was female. She was also made to shower with male inmates. (This could go in the Pit, but it’s probably a little too RO) From the Washington Post: [D.C. to Fire 3 Over Woman’s Detention as a Man; Corrections Officers Ignored Inmate’s Protests Over Mix-Up During Arrest, Jail Processing](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/15/AR2007081502277.html) (snippets below) > [@](#): > > District officials plan to fire three corrections officers who failed to realize a woman was being held in the male detention unit at the D.C. jail last month even after she had been strip-searched and allowed to shower with male inmates, government sources said yesterday. > > Virginia Grace Soto, 47, was arrested July 14 and thought to be a man despite her repeated protests otherwise. > > Soto, a white Hispanic woman originally from the Dominican Republic, is 5-foot-3 and weighs 130 pounds. She has a “slight build,” with brown hair and brown eyes, according to the corrections report, which describes Soto as “androgynous in nature.” > > The mix-up began April 28 when Soto was arrested on suspicion of prostitution. Although she told the two arresting officers she was a woman, she was ultimately booked as a man after being interviewed by Sgt. Tania Bell of the city’s Gay and Lesbian Liaison Unit. Bell ultimately classified Soto as a “transgendered male.” > > Soto spent two weekend nights in a solitary holding cell in an area reserved for male suspects awaiting a court appearance July 16, when U.S. marshals took her to D.C. Superior Court. Soto told investigators that she informed the marshals she was not a man but was “mocked” and called “thing.” > > …At that point, she told an officer she was female. “Sure you are,” the officer replied, according to the report, “but your identification says otherwise.” > > Soto was then taken to a holding cell and interviewed by Cpl. Maria Duncan, who spoke with her in Spanish. Duncan ordered her removed from the cell and taken to an examination room, where she was pronounced by a doctor to be a woman. Although I have to admit that I am a little confused… The article said that a doctor determined her to be a female. But what the article did not specifically say is whether this determination was made due to the fact she had a vagina and not a penis, or what. The question that still remains, was she born with female genitalia but was transgendered and living as a man? Or was she born with male genitalia and had undergone sex-reassignment? Or something in between? And did she have breasts? If she didn’t have a penis, and the doctor declared her to be female, then this is a huge mess up on the part of the DC police. It’s a huge civil rights violation. I just wish the article was more clear on what the confusion was. It shouldn’t matter that her face looked masculine, or that she dressed masculine… However this does raise a question about how true transgendered people should be treated in jail. For example, if someone is a M to F transgendered person, and are living fully as a woman, but haven’t undergone the full sex-reassignment surgery yet (as in, they still have a penis), then do they go to the women’s or men’s prison? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2007, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-held-in-male-prison-her-protests-that-she-is-female-are-ignored-and-mocked/415820/2 "2007-08-16T16:16:09Z")
I swear, the DC police (and Department of Corrections) could screw up a sunrise. ---
**Author:** ![TroubleAgain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e480ec/32.png) [@TroubleAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroubleAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2007, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-held-in-male-prison-her-protests-that-she-is-female-are-ignored-and-mocked/415820/3 "2007-08-16T16:53:13Z")
Very confusing. Now my brain hurts. ---
**Author:** ![Typo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Typo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2007, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-held-in-male-prison-her-protests-that-she-is-female-are-ignored-and-mocked/415820/4 "2007-08-16T17:22:03Z")
When the officer said “your identification says otherwise,” does this mean her driver’s license or whatever, or simply her internal jail identification? If her ID said “male,” that could lead to some confusion. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2007, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-held-in-male-prison-her-protests-that-she-is-female-are-ignored-and-mocked/415820/5 "2007-08-16T17:28:10Z")
I don’t get the impression from the article that she’s transgendered. There was a problem with the translator and her being “belligerent and incomprehensible” when interviewed after her arrest. I can see how something could have literally been lost in the translation when interviewing a furious person. All it would take is her belligerently saying “Yeah, I’m a man!” and meaning it as sarcasm, but having the person translating it take the statement as factual. It’s stupid, but I can see it happening. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2007, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-held-in-male-prison-her-protests-that-she-is-female-are-ignored-and-mocked/415820/6 "2007-08-16T17:32:35Z")
[QUOTE=Paul in Saudi] I swear, the DC police (and Department of Corrections) could screw up a sunrise. [/QUOTE] [No kidding](http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/display.php?id=1903)! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2007, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-held-in-male-prison-her-protests-that-she-is-female-are-ignored-and-mocked/415820/7 "2007-08-16T17:34:32Z")
As far as I can feel sorry for a junkie hooker too dumb to know when to stop being belligerent to the wrong people, I’m glad those guys who obviously knew differently are being fired. There might be legitimate confusion for a transgender but that’s obviously an (ugly) woman. And certainly lesbian hookers should be locked up with their fellow women. Her whole life is a mess. This contact with the system, however flawed, might get her some help. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2007, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-held-in-male-prison-her-protests-that-she-is-female-are-ignored-and-mocked/415820/8 "2007-08-16T18:43:27Z")
In my line of work, I’ve met one pre-op MTF transsexual inmate. She was taking hormones, so she did have breasts. She was not my client, so I’m not sure what ultimately ended up happening to her, but she was being housed with the males. Most of them pretty much considered her to be a freak, and I know one of the other inmates in the room at the time was saying something about how God wouldn’t approve, but as far as I know she hadn’t been beaten or raped. She actually seemed to be in pretty good spirits–much better than I would have figured. I think she was saved by having a pretty good personality and a sense of humor–she was pretty much inherently likeable, and therefore most people couldn’t help but get along with her, even if they might have thought she was some sort of horrible abomination. It was very strange. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2007, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-held-in-male-prison-her-protests-that-she-is-female-are-ignored-and-mocked/415820/9 "2007-08-16T18:51:57Z")
[QUOTE=Endiqua] When the officer said “your identification says otherwise,” does this mean her driver’s license or whatever, or simply her internal jail identification? If her ID said “male,” that could lead to some confusion. [/QUOTE] I would guess from her internal jail identification. According to the article, she was arrested on April 28, released on her own recognizance, and failed to show up for trial. She was then rearrested July 14 on drug charges. She was processed as a male both times. During her second arrest, even though she was examined by officers and hospital workers who thought her to be a woman, she was processed as a male based on the information from her April arrest. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2007, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-held-in-male-prison-her-protests-that-she-is-female-are-ignored-and-mocked/415820/10 "2007-08-16T19:16:09Z")
I always wondered what happened to [Alice the Goon.](http://www.mezcotoyz.com/store/inventory/Popeye/pop-003-006.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2007, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-held-in-male-prison-her-protests-that-she-is-female-are-ignored-and-mocked/415820/11 "2007-08-16T19:25:56Z")
I’m confused. Her picture doesn’t look like a male. I expected her to at least have short hair or something, but why was she first thought to be male? And if she was strip searched, shouldn’t that have cleared everything up? ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2007, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-held-in-male-prison-her-protests-that-she-is-female-are-ignored-and-mocked/415820/12 "2007-08-16T22:58:49Z")
I must offer up this thing I saw on TV many years ago, which I’m delighted to find on YouTube: Women In Prison … with Bruce (NSFW) ---
**Author:** ![Alice\_The\_Goon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Alice\_The\_Goon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alice_The_Goon)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2007, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-held-in-male-prison-her-protests-that-she-is-female-are-ignored-and-mocked/415820/13 "2007-08-17T01:07:55Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] I always wondered what happened to [Alice the Goon.](http://www.mezcotoyz.com/store/inventory/Popeye/pop-003-006.jpg) [/QUOTE] Why, I’ve been right here all along. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2007, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-held-in-male-prison-her-protests-that-she-is-female-are-ignored-and-mocked/415820/14 "2007-08-17T03:01:26Z")
[QUOTE=nyctea scandiaca] If she didn’t have a penis, and the doctor declared her to be female, then this is a huge mess up on the part of the DC police. It’s a huge civil rights violation. [/quote] Yeah, I think it would be a huge civil rights violation one way or another. > [@](#): > > However this does raise a question about how true transgendered people should be treated in jail. For example, if someone is a M to F transgendered person, and are living fully as a woman, but haven’t undergone the full sex-reassignment surgery yet (as in, they still have a penis), then do they go to the women’s or men’s prison? The whole thing is a gigantic nightmare, and I hear frequent reports of trans inmates being assaulted, raped, or worse. Approaches to the subject vary from no approach whatsoever to some sort of accommodation, with that being rather infrequent, as far as I can tell. [Here’s](http://www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/links_transgenderPrison.htm) some information. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2007, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-held-in-male-prison-her-protests-that-she-is-female-are-ignored-and-mocked/415820/15 "2007-08-17T03:10:45Z")
[This report](http://www.prisons.org/TIP.htm) from California says: > [@](#): > > Some examples of the abuses we’re seen are: > > - Male-to-female prisoners arbitrarily denied hormone therapy, even after they’ve developed female characteristics. > - Those who receive hormones get them irregularly and without proper consultation. > - Strip searches of transgender prisoners performed in front of other non-transgender prisoners. > - Verbal harassment and punishment based on gender identify by the staff is common. > - Gender appropriate clothing and hair style are prohibited and those who are caught attempting to appear as their chosen gender are given disciplinary notices and/or locked in administrative segregation. > - Prison medical staff uninformed on transgender issues and often behave negatively towards TG/GV [gender-variant] prisoners. > - Transgender prisoners housed and referred to according to their genitalia with no choice in housing designation. [This](http://www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Transsexuals_in_Canadian_Prisons__An_Equality_Analysis.pdf) Canadian paper from 1999 says: > [@](#): > > Corrections Canada policy about the medical treatment of transsexual people is to “freeze” them at the stage they were at in their treatment f or gender dysphoria when they came into prison. Under policies current in 1999, a transsexual inmate who was taken hormones before s/he was admitted to jail is continued on the hormones. However a person who is diagnosed as transsexual while s/he is in prison will not receiv e any treatment — gender counselling, hormones, primary or secondary sex reassignment surgery or cosmetic surgery — for her m edical condition. No gender counselling is provided while the transsexual is in prison. […] > > Sex reassignment surgery — the surgical alteration of genitals — is currently available under no circumstances whatsoever, ev en if the inmate has been assessed for sex reassignment surgery and found to be eligible by one of Canada’s two gender clinics, unless the inmate is prepared to pay for the > surgery, her own transportation and accommodation costs, and the costs of accompanying guards, including their salaries. > > The transsexual is in a catch 22 however: though she is effectiv ely denied SRS during her incarceration, unless she has had SRS she will not be housed in a prison of her chosen gender. The result f or alm ost every transsexual is that s/he must spend her entire prison term in a facility designed for people of the gender that s/he is not. […] > > Remedies for transsexual women are straightforward. They should be provided the hormones they need, whatever their treat m ent status upon incarceration; off ered appropriate therapy and enrolment in a recognized gender clinic; be provided with sex reassignment surgery upon the recpmmendation of the clinic; and should not be housed in correctional facilities for men. Unfortunately, I’m not certain of the current situation, but suffice it to say that trans people in prison face very severe challenges. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2007, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-held-in-male-prison-her-protests-that-she-is-female-are-ignored-and-mocked/415820/16 "2007-08-17T03:18:37Z")
BTW, [here’s](http://www.flyingtrannys.com) a link to a group from BC who did a coast-to-coast cycle tour last year to raise awareness of trans issues, after a friend of theirs, Alexandria Tucker, committed suicide after having been mistreated in a Montana prison – she had been arrested after _she_ filed a domestic abuse complaint. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2007, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-held-in-male-prison-her-protests-that-she-is-female-are-ignored-and-mocked/415820/17 "2007-08-17T03:20:49Z")
[QUOTE=matt\_mcl] Unfortunately, I’m not certain of the current situation, but suffice it to say that trans people in prison face very severe challenges. [/QUOTE] Sad, sickening and shocking. :mad: ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2007, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-held-in-male-prison-her-protests-that-she-is-female-are-ignored-and-mocked/415820/18 "2007-08-17T03:31:45Z")
> [@](#): > > However this does raise a question about how true transgendered people should be treated in jail. For example, if someone is a M to F transgendered person, and are living fully as a woman, but haven’t undergone the full sex-reassignment surgery yet (as in, they still have a penis), then do they go to the women’s or men’s prison? In New York, a gender determination is part of the reception process (assuming there’s a question). Prisoners are assigned to a prison based on what gender they are - not on what their legal gender of record is or on what their self-processed gender of belief is. I don’t know any of the specifics of Soto’s case other than what I read in the linked article. It appears from that that she is a “normal” woman who was just run through a very shoddy classification. But it’s also possible that Soto is a transsexual who is in the middle of a sex reassignment. If that is the case then Soto might consider herself to be a woman even if she still has a penis - but in such a case she would most likely be sent to a male prison. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2007, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-held-in-male-prison-her-protests-that-she-is-female-are-ignored-and-mocked/415820/19 "2007-08-17T06:57:28Z")
Yeah, this sounds bad, but I think we need to know more. I agree with **Little Nemo**. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2007, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-held-in-male-prison-her-protests-that-she-is-female-are-ignored-and-mocked/415820/20 "2007-08-17T07:02:16Z")
I don’t know if I’m allowed to have an opinion about this stuff outside of Great Debates, but I think it’s probably not safe for a transgendered person of any variety to be in a male or female prison at all. Isn’t there some kind of “special needs” prison where people that don’t easily fit in with regular prisoners go, like celebrities? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-held-in-male-prison-her-protests-that-she-is-female-are-ignored-and-mocked/415820.md?page=2)