# Woman kills young arab that snatched her purse; Dutch public opinion deeply divided. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 27, 2008, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-kills-young-arab-that-snatched-her-purse-dutch-public-opinion-deeply-divided/439356 "2008-02-27T09:31:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-kills-young-arab-that-snatched-her-purse-dutch-public-opinion-deeply-divided/439356/1 "2008-02-27T09:31:01Z")
[ABC-News link.](http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=3423316) In the Netherlands is currently on trial a 46-year old lady, Germaine X. The Dutch DA has demanded 30 months in prison. Dutch public opinion is deeply divided, with as much a 70 % of Dutch population thinking the sentence is outrageously harsh. On the other hand, the Dutch Moroccan muslim community is outraged as well and has made threats to the woman, who as a result has been hiding for that last three years. The case somewhat resembles the USA Rodney King case. > [@](#): > > (adapted)The early 2005 incident assumed national importance and inflamed tensions with the Dutch country’s Moroccan community. > The 19-year-old man came from a Moroccan family and the filmmaker Theo van Gogh had been murdered by a Muslim radical just two months earlier. > Some sympathized with the driver, believing she justifiably chased the thief and killed him accidentally. But many in Amsterdam’s Moroccan community said the incident reflected Dutch disdain for them. > > The story had many complexities, including the youth’s extensive criminal background, but also the driver’s record of poor impulse control and reckless driving. > > The woman, identified as Germaine C., 45, was in her car when the teenager, Ali el B., grabbed her purse from the back seat and then hopped on a scooter driven by a friend. The woman chased them with her car in reverse throught the Amsterdam city street and hit the scooter, pinning the thief against a tree. He died on the spot. His accomplice fled on foot. The woman was arrested several days later. > The woman told the judge she wanted only to “bump” the scooter. The judge didn’t believe her, as the woman was a skilled driver, who had even tried to become a driving instructor at some point. She also had a record of reckless driving, and poor impulse control. For example, she had at one point been _driving in reverse on a busy freeway,_ to dispute police officers in a police car that had photographed her speeding. > Ali El B. on the other hand, was an example of the core group of two thousand or so second-generation Moroccan immigrant young men, that have been causing so much trouble in recent years in Amsterdam and that have been giving all other Morroccan immigrants a bad name. Ali had been convicted before of purse theft before and \*was in fact awaiting trial on armed robbery charges \*when he died. His family, as is usual in immigrant Moroccan families, knew little of the boys criminal activities and blindly held on to the idea that he was “a sweet good boy”. The blindness and one-sidedness of the Moroccan community and the trheatening tone of their protest alienated the Dutch public even more. It is a shame that both protagonists in this drama are so deeply unsympathetic. I myself don’t really know what to think; considering the woman has been awaitng trial for three years, I think a sentence of six months or so is appropriate. What do Dopers think? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-kills-young-arab-that-snatched-her-purse-dutch-public-opinion-deeply-divided/439356/2 "2008-02-27T09:39:04Z")
Thieving scumbag dies as a result of his nefarious activities? Sorry, nothing to see here, move along. And I really don’t see that race has anything to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-kills-young-arab-that-snatched-her-purse-dutch-public-opinion-deeply-divided/439356/3 "2008-02-27T11:10:39Z")
The Moslem community is getting into an extremely dangerous position. They are using their race as a cover for the criminal behaviour of just a few, and no doubt the ones doing this rabble rousing have their own agenda too. This was not about race, but the fact that htis woman has had to go into hiding instead of the judiciary dealing with it seems to me that some Moslems think they are beyond the law. Those behind the threats should be imprisoned - one day I fear the backlash against Islam in Western nations will be devastating. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-kills-young-arab-that-snatched-her-purse-dutch-public-opinion-deeply-divided/439356/4 "2008-02-27T11:17:33Z")
How can a 19 year old kid be a convicted thief and awaiting trial on armed robbery charges without his family knowing? Is this truly a cultural phenomenon? ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-kills-young-arab-that-snatched-her-purse-dutch-public-opinion-deeply-divided/439356/5 "2008-02-27T11:20:01Z")
[QUOTE=Quartz] Thieving scumbag dies as a result of his nefarious activities? Sorry, nothing to see here, move along. [/QUOTE] That is a very American viewpoint, as it is even legal in many states to shoot somebody trespassing on your property. Not so, however, in the Netherlands. The judges viewpoint is that purse snatching doesn’t deserve a death sentence, and that we can’t have vigilante justice or retalatory action. “Being one’s own judge” is heavily frowned on here. I’m not saying that stance doesn’t have its drawbacks as wel as advantages compared to the American system; but it IS a difference. [QUOTE=Quartz] And I really don’t see that race has anything to do with it. [/QUOTE] Not the crime and the way the perp was killed, no. But race/nationality had _everything_ to do with the resulting uproar. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-kills-young-arab-that-snatched-her-purse-dutch-public-opinion-deeply-divided/439356/6 "2008-02-27T11:22:21Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] How can a 19 year old kid be a convicted thief and awaiting trial on armed robbery charges without his family knowing? Is this truly a cultural phenomenon? [/QUOTE] They would know, but they would probably turn a blind eye anyway, be in denial, make lots of excuses, point accusing fingers, etcetera. That failure by the Muslim community to _publicly_ accept even a small part of the blame for the wrongdoings caused by a small group of their youngsters, is a big part of the irritation many Dutch feel towards “Muslims”. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-kills-young-arab-that-snatched-her-purse-dutch-public-opinion-deeply-divided/439356/7 "2008-02-27T11:26:35Z")
I wondered what **gum** was up to these days… 😉 Seriously, though, examine the case without race/religion involved. He was a scumbag, she acted incredibly irresponsibly. I would hope that the court comes down largely in her favour, but I’d be surprised if she wasn’t censured in some way. The article you quote seems to paint the Moroccan community with a brush that wouldn’t be considered seemly for the UK media (except in the tabloid press, in op-ed pieces). The “sweet good boy” defense happens in all communities, not just immigrant. That said, the knee-jerk “defend one of our own reagardless” reaction happens all the time over here too. ETA: **Maastricht** , **Quartz** is British. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-kills-young-arab-that-snatched-her-purse-dutch-public-opinion-deeply-divided/439356/8 "2008-02-27T11:30:45Z")
USA Dopers, can anyone draw a parallel here with how some of your own minority groups dealt with _their_ criminal youngsters? Suppose that in the past, young men from minority group X had a well deserved reputation for crime. And suppose that minority group X was a religiously close knit community that , perhaps unconsciously, milked its status as victim/minority/proud culture for all that it was worth. Did such minority groups exist? Over time, how did they deal with their young criminal sons? Denial? Public excuses? Promises to raise the kids better? How did that work out? ---
**Author:** ![Ice\_Wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dfb087/32.png) [@Ice\_Wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ice_Wolf)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-kills-young-arab-that-snatched-her-purse-dutch-public-opinion-deeply-divided/439356/9 "2008-02-27T11:34:24Z")
The case seems to me to be what we’d call here “reckless driving causing death”. That involves a maximum fine of $20,000 and/or five years in prison. The 30 month prison term for this woman may well get bargained down, anyway, but I think it looks fair. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-kills-young-arab-that-snatched-her-purse-dutch-public-opinion-deeply-divided/439356/10 "2008-02-27T11:35:38Z")
[QUOTE=jjimm] Seriously, though, examine the case without race/religion involved. He was a scumbag, she acted incredibly irresponsibly. I would hope that the court comes down largely in her favour, but I’d be surprised if she wasn’t censured in some way. [/QUOTE] That sounds reasonable. However, I wonder if the DA will also persecute the threats made against Germaine C. It’s been three years, and so far no such arrests have been made. I have to say that irks me. If Germaine is prosecuted, fine, but then so should the cowards that make threats. ---
**Author:** ![Ice\_Wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dfb087/32.png) [@Ice\_Wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ice_Wolf)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-kills-young-arab-that-snatched-her-purse-dutch-public-opinion-deeply-divided/439356/11 "2008-02-27T11:39:13Z")
Making threats against anybody is against the law, surely. I agree with you there, **Maastricht**. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-kills-young-arab-that-snatched-her-purse-dutch-public-opinion-deeply-divided/439356/12 "2008-02-27T11:42:30Z")
[QUOTE=Maastricht] …I wonder if the DA will also persecute the threats made against Germaine C. It’s been three years, and so far no such arrests have been made. I have to say that irks me. If Germaine is prosecuted, fine, but then so should the cowards that make threats. [/QUOTE] Agree. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-kills-young-arab-that-snatched-her-purse-dutch-public-opinion-deeply-divided/439356/13 "2008-02-27T11:45:21Z")
In the UK, pursuing and killing a fleeing purse-snatcher would be a crime (presumably ‘manslaughter’ if the car was provably deliberately aimed to kill and ‘causing death by dangerous driving’ if it wasn’t. I don’t like thieves (but he didn’t use violence). I certainly don’t like vigilantes, especially using a car to ram (which could easily kill other people) I don’t like stirring up threats using racial prejudice and ignorance. > [@Quartz](#): > > Thieving scumbag dies as a result of his nefarious activities? Sorry, nothing to see here, move along. Snatching valuables out of a car should be a death sentence, carried out by a civilian? Would you be as content if the woman had shot him on the street? ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-kills-young-arab-that-snatched-her-purse-dutch-public-opinion-deeply-divided/439356/14 "2008-02-27T11:47:41Z")
[QUOTE=Quartz] Thieving scumbag dies as a result of his nefarious activities? Sorry, nothing to see here, move along. And I really don’t see that race has anything to do with it. [/QUOTE] There is nothing for me to say,you’ve said it all,I am in total agreement. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-kills-young-arab-that-snatched-her-purse-dutch-public-opinion-deeply-divided/439356/15 "2008-02-27T12:26:41Z")
[QUOTE=glee] Snatching valuables out of a car should be a death sentence, carried out by a civilian? Would you be as content if the woman had shot him on the street? [/QUOTE] Yeah, I can’t say I’m a fan of this kind of action either. There’s a fair amount of evidence that she should have known this would likely cause great harm or worse to the thief. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-kills-young-arab-that-snatched-her-purse-dutch-public-opinion-deeply-divided/439356/16 "2008-02-27T12:31:57Z")
[QUOTE=Maastricht] The judges viewpoint is that purse snatching doesn’t deserve a death sentence, and that we can’t have vigilante justice or retalatory action. [/QUOTE] Quite agree. He definitely didn’t deserve to die, but this was not vigilante justice. This was in media res, in the heat of the moment; vigilante justice would be her going round to his house afterwards. He stole and took off and she pursued him. This pursuit happenned to end with his death. I have no problem with that. If someone stole your wallet, you’d run after them, wouldn’t you? Suppose you tackled them and they hit their head on a stone and died; how is this different? No one is saying that she reversed over him repeatedly. ---
**Author:** ![Carson\_O\_Genic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cdc98d/32.png) [@Carson\_O\_Genic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carson_O_Genic)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-kills-young-arab-that-snatched-her-purse-dutch-public-opinion-deeply-divided/439356/17 "2008-02-27T12:38:42Z")
[QUOTE=Maastricht] USA Dopers, can anyone draw a parallel here with how some of your own minority groups dealt with _their_ criminal youngsters? Suppose that in the past, young men from minority group X had a well deserved reputation for crime. And suppose that minority group X was a religiously close knit community that , perhaps unconsciously, milked its status as victim/minority/proud culture for all that it was worth. Did such minority groups exist? Over time, how did they deal with their young criminal sons? Denial? Public excuses? Promises to raise the kids better? How did that work out? [/QUOTE] ``` That's a good question,but probably a hot potato for this particular forum.It would quickly devolve into VCO3 Pit material. ``` ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-kills-young-arab-that-snatched-her-purse-dutch-public-opinion-deeply-divided/439356/18 "2008-02-27T12:57:03Z")
[QUOTE=Quartz] No one is saying that she reversed over him repeatedly. [/QUOTE] No, but she is on trial for possibly deliberately ramming the guy into a tree with a car and killing him. I don’t know if she did but neither do you. That’s what the trial is for. ---
**Author:** ![VunderBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/839c29/32.png) [@VunderBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VunderBob)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-kills-young-arab-that-snatched-her-purse-dutch-public-opinion-deeply-divided/439356/19 "2008-02-27T13:09:19Z")
[QUOTE=Maastricht] That is a very American viewpoint, as it is even legal in many states to shoot somebody trespassing on your property. [/QUOTE] No it is not. In roughly half of the states, you can shoot someone who is in your house, uninvited and threatening you with bodily harm. YOU CANNOT SHOOT SOMEONE WALKING ACROSS YOUR YARD, and that’s true in all 50 states. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-kills-young-arab-that-snatched-her-purse-dutch-public-opinion-deeply-divided/439356/20 "2008-02-27T13:14:04Z")
[QUOTE=Quartz] Suppose you tackled them and they hit their head on a stone and died; how is this different? [/QUOTE] The difference is the greatly increased probability of major injury or death when one uses a vehicle to make the tackle. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-kills-young-arab-that-snatched-her-purse-dutch-public-opinion-deeply-divided/439356.md?page=2)