# Woman offended by truthful advice from doctor **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 24, 2005, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-offended-by-truthful-advice-from-doctor/318435 "2005-08-24T15:54:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![The\_Hook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@The\_Hook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hook)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-offended-by-truthful-advice-from-doctor/318435/21 "2005-08-24T18:06:36Z")
> [@Jurhael](#): > > When I saw that, I just thought, “So?” Yeah, me too, but then I thought this woman doesn’t apparently care very much for the risks of heart attack, stroke, and diabetes so the doctor must say _something_ to, as he said, get her attention. Would it have worked had it been a 15-year-old girl? I don’t think so, we’re growing them with the mentality that we’re all beautiful the way we are. Which is fine, but a lot of people seem to believe that feeling beautiful means being healthy. Therefore, I propose a new motivational phrase: “Ladies, hear me out. You’re all beautiful… but you’re fat!” ---
**Author:** ![xbuckeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9e8a1a/32.png) [@xbuckeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xbuckeye)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-offended-by-truthful-advice-from-doctor/318435/22 "2005-08-24T18:29:55Z")
The ironic thing is that the doctor next door will get sued next year because he _didn’t_ tell someone that they were putting themselves at risk for all kinds of problems by being overweight. Several of my relatives are waaaaay to heavy for their own good and keep going to the doctor with high cholesterol, high blood pressure, high blood glucose, lack of energy, joint pain, breathing trouble, etc, etc, etc. Now, lots of these things run in my family and are made worse by circumstances beyond their control, but just like you don’t haul lead on a bicycle, you don’t exacerbate the problem by piling on the weight. My back hurts Your using it wrong, do these excercises But those make my knees hurt Then do these excercises Those are hard, they make me tired Then get more sleep But I can’t sleep Because of restless cats and probable mental disorders that keep the cats from getting kicked out Then make these lifestyle changes, like less caffiene and turning off the TV before you go to bed But…but…_whine_ Then take these potentially lethal pain killers, and sleeping medications that interfere with your blood pressure medications and leave me alone :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-offended-by-truthful-advice-from-doctor/318435/23 "2005-08-24T18:36:05Z")
> [@featherlou](#): > > It’s all well and good to tell patients something they already know, but back it up with a little action, would you? I get the same thing at the doctor; “You should lose some weight.” (I’m about 40 pounds overweight, and yeah, I know it :rolleyes: .) So, Mr. 500 years of education making $500,000 a year, how about you tell me how, since exercising and eating right isn’t doing it so far? I had to fight hard to get my doctor to refer me to a dietician because, wait for it, I WASN’T FAT ENOUGH!!! I go to see the dietician, and she was disappointed - she couldn’t find anything particularly wrong with my diet and exercise. > > Next doctor that tells me I should lose some weight gets bitch-slapped. As a person whose weight has cycled up an down very considerably in my time, I don’t quite understand what you’re saying re the “I’m eating and exercising right but weight won’t come off” observation. 99.9% of the time, rare glandular issues aside, it’s because you’re eating too much relative to your metabolism. It’s calorie intake vs metabolic burn pure and simple. If (like me) your metabolism is slightly below normal, and your appetite slighly above you will tend to pack it on over time regardless of what a dietician says, as they are usually working with rough metabolic averages re required calories for a specific weight level. This somewhat involved metabolic formula below that adjusts for age, is the most accurate I have ever seen or used and it’s _still_ about 5-10% high relative to my actual (real world) burn rate. The bottom line is to listen to your body feedback and reduce your total daily calories. [The Harris-Benedict formula (BMR based on total body weight)](http://www.weightlossforall.com/calculate%20cals.htm) > [@](#): > > The Harris-Benedict formula (BMR based on total body weight) > > The Harris Benedict equation is a calorie formula using the factors of height, weight, age, and sex to determine basal metabolic rate (BMR). This makes it more accurate than determining calorie needs based on total bodyweight alone. The only variable it does not take into consideration is lean body mass. Therefore, this equation will be very accurate in all but the extremely muscular (will underestimate caloric needs) and the extremely overfat (will overestimate caloric needs). > > Men: BMR = 66 + (13.7 X wt in kg) + (5 X ht in cm) - (6.8 X age in years) > > Women: BMR = 655 + (9.6 X wt in kg) + (1.8 X ht in cm) - (4.7 X age in years) > > Note: 1 inch = 2.54 cm. > 1 kilogram = 2.2 lbs. > > Example: > You are female > You are 30 yrs old > You are 5’ 6 " tall (167.6 cm) > You weigh 120 lbs. (54.5 kilos) > Your BMR = 655 + 523 + 302 - 141 = 1339 calories/day > > Now that you know your BMR, you can calculate TDEE by multiplying your BMR by your activity multiplier from the chart below: > > Activity Multiplier > > Sedentary = BMR X 1.2 (little or no exercise, desk job) > Lightly active = BMR X 1.375 (light exercise/sports 1-3 days/wk) > Mod. active = BMR X 1.55 (moderate exercise/sports 3-5 days/wk) > Very active = BMR X 1.725 (hard exercise/sports 6-7 days/wk) > Extr. active = BMR X 1.9 (hard daily exercise/sports & physical job or 2X day training, i.e marathon, contest etc.) > > Example: > Your BMR is 1339 calories per day > Your activity level is moderately active (work out 3-4 times per week) > Your activity factor is 1.55 > Your TDEE = 1.55 X 1339 = 2075 calories/day ] ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-offended-by-truthful-advice-from-doctor/318435/24 "2005-08-24T18:43:46Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > It’s amusing to slam her for this. But, there’s more than is being reported, if the state board is treating it this seriously, I suspect. Just a gut feeling, but… State boards are ass. _Every_ complaint to a state board (at least in my state) is taken seriously and followed up on. I have been on the receiving end and it is something of a joke, even to the investigator. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-offended-by-truthful-advice-from-doctor/318435/25 "2005-08-24T18:57:00Z")
Every time I go to the dentist they tell me I need to floss more often. And…that …really…hurts. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-offended-by-truthful-advice-from-doctor/318435/26 "2005-08-24T19:08:07Z")
I’m sure it doesn’t help to see all these pill commercials on TV that profess to be the solution to all your problems. There’s one in particular that really gets to me. A woman is asking all the standard questions: “Do you have trouble losing weight? Have you tried _ **EVERYTHING** _ ( :rolleyes: ) to lose weight with no sucess? Well guess what? Stubborn belly fat is not your fault! That’s right, it’s a stress hormone that’s causing you to be fat! Take our pill and it’ll all get better!” They then have the interviews with the people who took the pill, with claims that they didn’t do anything else differently and the weight just melted off! So there you go, there’s a miracle pill that’ll make you skinny! But wait! You have to be _really fat!_ They don’t want people trying to take this pill who “just need to lose a quick 10 pounds!” It’s only for the seriously obese! Sorry for the tangent, but that’s been bothering me for a while and this just seemed like an appropriate place. ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-offended-by-truthful-advice-from-doctor/318435/27 "2005-08-24T19:09:17Z")
There are a lot of things we don’t know. > [@](#): > > If your heart rate jumps to 220 crossing the street, But what if it doesn’t? What if it stays at a roughly appropriate point? What was the woman’s blood pressure? Was it high? Normal? Low? How is her cholesterol? Is it normal? Low? How is her blood sugar? What if she really is absolutely healthy in all other respects, and the physician is just telling her to lose weight because he thinks he “should”, including giving her a rather insulting lecture that contains information that I’m sure she already knows (based on my experience at the doctor). Overweight != Unhealthy. Blood Sugar, resting and active heart rate, blood pressure and cholesterol are all much better indicators of one’s health than one’s weight is. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-offended-by-truthful-advice-from-doctor/318435/28 "2005-08-24T19:14:11Z")
> [@featherlou](#): > > how about you tell me how, since exercising and eating right isn’t doing it so far? If you’re still fat, then you need to: Eat even less. Eat even better. Exercise even more. It can be done. You just need to put more effort into it. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-offended-by-truthful-advice-from-doctor/318435/29 "2005-08-24T19:18:05Z")
> [@SisterCoyote](#): > > Overweight != Unhealthy. Blood Sugar, resting and active heart rate, blood pressure and cholesterol are all much better indicators of one’s health than one’s weight is. Huh. Perhaps it takes someone with some sort of expertise to make these determinations… maybe someone with some sort of rigorous training in the ways in which the human body works… yes, I’ve got an idea now! Extensive schooling, backed with licensing boards and whatnot… And those that pass could wear white lab coats and get sued by people who are offended by medical science! Yes, that sounds like a great idea! Wait… except for that last bit. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-offended-by-truthful-advice-from-doctor/318435/30 "2005-08-24T19:22:04Z")
> [@SisterCoyote](#): > > \Overweight != Unhealthy. Blood Sugar, resting and active heart rate, blood pressure and cholesterol are all much better indicators of one’s health than one’s weight is. These indicators are all normal for me (my cholesterol was a bit low last time it was checked!). Interesting calculation, **astro**. My TDEE comes out to 2107 calories per day. I’ll have to monitor my calories for a while to see what I’m at. This kind of thing is a lot more helpful than, “You’re fat. Lose some weight.” Oh, and I do have mild hypoglycemia and polycystic ovaries, both of which conditions put you in Catch-22 with weight - they’re both weight-related, and would be made better by my losing weight, but they also make it very difficult to _lose_ weight. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-offended-by-truthful-advice-from-doctor/318435/31 "2005-08-24T19:26:27Z")
> [@SisterCoyote](#): > > There are a lot of things we don’t know. > > But what if it doesn’t? What if it stays at a roughly appropriate point? What was the woman’s blood pressure? Was it high? Normal? Low? How is her cholesterol? Is it normal? Low? How is her blood sugar? > > What if she really is absolutely healthy in all other respects, and the physician is just telling her to lose weight because he thinks he “should”, including giving her a rather insulting lecture that contains information that I’m sure she already knows (based on my experience at the doctor). > > Overweight != Unhealthy. Blood Sugar, resting and active heart rate, blood pressure and cholesterol are all much better indicators of one’s health than one’s weight is. I was a relatively healthy fat person as the above indicators were all perfectly normal (esp my blood pressure which was quite low ) despite being my being significantly overweight. The main negative impact of being overweight was the physical load on my feet and ankles by the end of the day, and my lessened capacity to do physical work over extended periods of time that required more than short bursts of energy. In addition, while being overweight may be sustainable while younger or even middle aged, it becomes ever more negative healthwise as you get older and your body can’t handle the strain as well. Being significantly overweight is _not_ a healthy lifestyle even if you are scoring normally on glycemic, cardiac and metabolic tests. It _WILL_ catch up with you and by the time it does it’s usually far too late to fix the problems it has caused. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ea5d25/32.png) [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-offended-by-truthful-advice-from-doctor/318435/32 "2005-08-24T19:26:59Z")
> [@Sister Coyote](#): > > Overweight != Unhealthy. True, but the incidence of correlation is pretty damn high. Water from the sky != raining, but that’s the way to bet. > [@Sister Coyote](#): > > Blood Sugar, resting and active heart rate, blood pressure and cholesterol are all much better indicators of one’s health than one’s weight is. True, but these are most often abnormal in overweight people. Wouldn’t it be great if there were people who were qualified to tell you whether or not your weight was the cause of your health problems? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Caricci](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85f322/32.png) [@Caricci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caricci)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-offended-by-truthful-advice-from-doctor/318435/33 "2005-08-24T19:27:34Z")
> [@SisterCoyote](#): > > There are a lot of things we don’t know. > > But what if it doesn’t? What if it stays at a roughly appropriate point? What was the woman’s blood pressure? Was it high? Normal? Low? How is her cholesterol? Is it normal? Low? How is her blood sugar? > > What if she really is absolutely healthy in all other respects, and the physician is just telling her to lose weight because he thinks he “should”, including giving her a rather insulting lecture that contains information that I’m sure she already knows (based on my experience at the doctor). > > Overweight != Unhealthy. Blood Sugar, resting and active heart rate, blood pressure and cholesterol are all much better indicators of one’s health than one’s weight is. Is there ANY indication that her cholesterol, blood sugar, blood pressure, resting and active heart rate are normal? All of this sounds like the types of arguments one has with children: Adult: Hey, you didn’t look both ways before crossing the street. You could be killed! Kid: But I didn’t get killed. Adult: Well, you could have been. You were just lucky a car wasn’t coming this time. kind of sounds like: Doctor: You are well above your ideal weight. It’s very likely to raise your cholesterol, blood pressure and blood sugar. Patient: But it hasn’t. Doctor: But it might. Your just lucky it hasn’t yet. I think it would be irresponsible for the doctor to ignore the weight of his heavier patients. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-offended-by-truthful-advice-from-doctor/318435/34 "2005-08-24T19:39:57Z")
> [@featherlou](#): > > These indicators are all normal for me (my cholesterol was a bit low last time it was checked!). > > Interesting calculation, **astro**. My TDEE comes out to 2107 calories per day. I’ll have to monitor my calories for a while to see what I’m at. This kind of thing is a lot more helpful than, “You’re fat. Lose some weight.” Oh, and I do have mild hypoglycemia and polycystic ovaries, both of which conditions put you in Catch-22 with weight - they’re both weight-related, and would be made better by my losing weight, but they also make it very difficult to _lose_ weight. The interesting thing (to me) is how _amazingly_ quickly a person can hit their recommended calorie level(s) with the calorie dense foods and big portions our society adores. In many cases there are numerous fastfood & dinner restaurant _individual_ items that _by themselves_ would chew up over 50% (or more) of a normal sized person’s daily calorie allowance. ---
**Author:** ![Cemetery\_Savior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Cemetery\_Savior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cemetery_Savior)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-offended-by-truthful-advice-from-doctor/318435/35 "2005-08-24T21:10:22Z")
> [@SisterCoyote](#): > > There are a lot of things we don’t know… > Overweight != Unhealthy. Blood Sugar, resting and active heart rate, blood pressure and cholesterol are all much better indicators of one’s health than one’s weight is. I think that this is one of the sad parts of the media “It’s OK” parade. If you’re a small amount overweight…maybe you’re not “over”-weight. The BMI is a joke, as are all of those ht/wt charts. If you doctor tells you that you’re “fat”, “overweight”, or “corpulent”, then you simply need to drop pounds. If all other things are normal, you STILL need to drop weight. It’s not OK to cary an extra 20-50 pounds, no matter what the latest Oprah episode says. Forget about the momentary conflation of good numbers in the measurement s listed above, and think of the continuous damage to the joints, to the heart that has to overspeed to keep up (and it does, regardless of resting heart rate), and the organs that are being suffused by fat. By the way…that Harris-Benedict formula needs some tweaking…I apparently am allowed to consume 3,034 cal/day. My doctor would be giving me the eye. -Cem ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-offended-by-truthful-advice-from-doctor/318435/36 "2005-08-24T21:16:37Z")
> [@Cemetery Savior](#): > > I think that this is one of the sad parts of the media “It’s OK” parade. If you’re a small amount overweight…maybe you’re not “over”-weight. The BMI is a joke, as are all of those ht/wt charts. > > If you doctor tells you that you’re “fat”, “overweight”, or “corpulent”, then you simply need to drop pounds. If all other things are normal, you STILL need to drop weight. It’s not OK to cary an extra 20-50 pounds, no matter what the latest Oprah episode says. Forget about the momentary conflation of good numbers in the measurement s listed above, and think of the continuous damage to the joints, to the heart that has to overspeed to keep up (and it does, regardless of resting heart rate), and the organs that are being suffused by fat. > > By the way…that Harris-Benedict formula needs some tweaking…I apparently am allowed to consume 3,034 cal/day. > > My doctor would be giving me the eye. > > -Cem Be sure you’re being accurate about the projected activity levels. That’s the biggest multiplier and many people overestimate how physically active they are. ---
**Author:** ![FisherQueen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/58f4c7/32.png) [@FisherQueen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FisherQueen)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-offended-by-truthful-advice-from-doctor/318435/37 "2005-08-24T22:19:15Z")
I went to the doctor once. I went because I was feeling wrong. Around the same time every afternoon, I started feeling very weak and dizzy, very close to passing out. It didn’t go away, so I went to the doc. I mentioned to him that there was a history of diabetes in my family, and so I was a little concerned about that. He lectured me for some time about the fact that I am overweight, and therefore it will be my own fault if I do get sick. He recommended I start a diet immediately. “Well, in fact, I said, I recently started a diet–” He cut me off to keep lecturing. He recommended the South Beach Diet to me, without asking me anything about my current eating or exercise habits. When I asked him, wasn’t that diet still pretty controversial and unproven, he assured me that it was the best one. He sent me home. He did not make any attempt to identify the problem I’d come there for or to suggest any way to treat it. I was so pissed that I ate a great big dinner. And felt much better. I did a little math, and realized that on my new diet, I’d only been taking in about 500-600 calories a day. I’d been starving myself, which is why I felt so badly, but my doctor didn’t identify the problem because he was so disgusted by the fat lady that he couldn’t bring himself to even think about the problem. I wish I’d thought to file a complaint. ---
**Author:** ![SusanStoHelit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@SusanStoHelit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SusanStoHelit)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-offended-by-truthful-advice-from-doctor/318435/38 "2005-08-24T23:03:09Z")
> [@featherlou](#): > > These indicators are all normal for me (my cholesterol was a bit low last time it was checked!). > > Interesting calculation, **astro**. My TDEE comes out to 2107 calories per day. I’ll have to monitor my calories for a while to see what I’m at. This kind of thing is a lot more helpful than, “You’re fat. Lose some weight.” Oh, and I do have mild hypoglycemia and polycystic ovaries, both of which conditions put you in Catch-22 with weight - they’re both weight-related, and would be made better by my losing weight, but they also make it very difficult to _lose_ weight. Interesting that you should say that. Controlling my hypoglycemia means eating 6 small meals a day and avoiding foods with a high glycemic index (sugary, processed foods). Both of these things were recommended by my Dr and the nutritionist to which he referred me, and I’ve lost weight since I started following their advice. I’m not trying to insult you, and I believe that you are doing your best re: weight loss, but you may be following bad advice. How do polycycstic ovaries contribute to weight gain? I’ve never heard that before, but now that I think about it most of the women I’ve known with the disorder were at least 40lbs overweight. ---
**Author:** ![SusanStoHelit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@SusanStoHelit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SusanStoHelit)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-offended-by-truthful-advice-from-doctor/318435/39 "2005-08-24T23:08:52Z")
> [@FisherQueen](#): > > I wish I’d thought to file a complaint. You should have. That was very irresponsible and negligent of him. Was he an older, Drs-are-Gods-with-a-capital-G-style Dr? ---
**Author:** ![OrangeJumpsuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/45deac/32.png) [@OrangeJumpsuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OrangeJumpsuit)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2005, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-offended-by-truthful-advice-from-doctor/318435/40 "2005-08-25T00:09:37Z")
This woman needs to put down the rack of lamb and realize she’s FAT which is UNHEALTHY. Don’t like it? Put on your jogging shoes and do something about it. I have a mind to go blow up Hometown Buffet after reading this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-offended-by-truthful-advice-from-doctor/318435.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-offended-by-truthful-advice-from-doctor/318435.md?page=3)