# Woman sentenced for murder of her rapist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 16, 2016, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033 "2016-07-16T07:39:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/21 "2016-07-16T13:26:37Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > So, \*exactly \*the same argument that’s used for not jailing college “boys” who commit rape. Only superficially, and provided you ignore the salient point driving my argument entirely. But other than that, sure. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/22 "2016-07-16T13:28:27Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > You do realise that the word has been in common use for over 700 years. Right? :dubious: So are lots of other “-ess” words that have fallen or are falling out of general usage. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/23 "2016-07-16T13:29:59Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > So are lots of other “-ess” words that have fallen or are falling out of general usage. So you don’t understand what the word means? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/24 "2016-07-16T13:33:08Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > So you don’t understand what the word means? Oh, good grief. Of course I know what the word means. I don’t use it; I use a gender neutral word instead. I’ll assume that was also **LHoD** ’s point. What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/25 "2016-07-16T13:44:42Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > So you don’t understand what the word means? I know what words like ‘forsooth’ and ‘widdershins’ mean also, but I don’t usually drop them into conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/26 "2016-07-16T13:48:45Z")
Hey now ! Widdershins is perfectly cromulent. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/27 "2016-07-16T13:53:21Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Oh, good grief. Of course I know what the word means. I don’t use it; I use a gender neutral word instead. I’ll assume that was also **LHoD** ’s point. You use a gender neutral word to describe someone’s gender? Neat trick. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/28 "2016-07-16T13:53:59Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > No worries, **Chihuahua** , in my opinion as the thread-starter it’'s no hijack at all as I intended the debate to be about both the attitude of the victim advocacy groups and the sentence itself. I do agree that these groups are sometimes way too extreme in their positions, as most certainly is the case here. As a male I cannot relate to the emotional investment that women have in the crime of rape. If not a hijack I’d be interested in a discussion…if it’s been had, then a link will do. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/29 "2016-07-16T13:54:35Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I know what words like ‘forsooth’ and ‘widdershins’ mean also, but I don’t usually drop them into conversation. Yes, [such an archaic word](https://www.google.com/search?q=murderess&client=firefox-b&biw=1680&bih=893&tbm=nws&ei=QTeKV9XZEsK90gSK1JCwDw&start=30&sa=N&dpr=1). :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/30 "2016-07-16T14:15:47Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > What the fuck is the deal with “murderess”? The -er suffix is only for dudes now? She’s a murderer, we don’t need a separate suffix to point out her vagina. It’s the feminine form of the noun. (ess) Count, Countess, etc. It’s not a bad thing, honest. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/31 "2016-07-16T14:38:39Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > As a male I cannot relate to the emotional investment that women have in the crime of rape. > > If not a hijack I’d be interested in a discussion…if it’s been had, then a link will do. There is no evidence that this murderess/er was raped. Men also get raped. Just what is your point? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/32 "2016-07-16T14:55:47Z")
I routinely refer to females on this message board as “posteresses”. Don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/33 "2016-07-16T15:06:57Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Yes, [such an archaic word](https://www.google.com/search?q=murderess&client=firefox-b&biw=1680&bih=893&tbm=nws&ei=QTeKV9XZEsK90gSK1JCwDw&start=30&sa=N&dpr=1). :rolleyes: Ooh, google dump. Burn. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/34 "2016-07-16T15:07:54Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Yeah, I can’t agree with the “chilling message” argument; if anything the “We should permit vigilante killing” message is more chilling. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > What evidence is there that Esperanza pointed the alleged rapist out for the purpose of having him murdered. That seems to be the assumption, but the article doesn’t substantiate that. The only way the “chilling message” assertion makes any sense to me is if we interpret it as “It sends the chilling message that a rape victim has to be very careful whom she tells about her rape, because if they then ‘do something about it,’ she could end up in serious trouble.” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/35 "2016-07-16T15:08:15Z")
Lynching somebody is wrong even if they are guilty of a crime like rape. We have a legal system to handle this. Esparza should have gone to the police with her accusation not to her ex-boyfriend and his two friends. I’ll admit I have a heard time believing Esparza was completely unaware of what would happen to Ramirez. She should have been tipped off by the fact her friends were bringing meat cleavers that this wasn’t going to be just a verbal confrontation. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/36 "2016-07-16T15:18:39Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > At the risk of a thread hijack, I’m getting really sick of victim’s advocates who always assume the victim is 100% truthful. You see them protesting and saying that rape victim’s “deserve to be believed.” And I can recall some high profile cases (such as the Duke lacrosse team case) where the lynch mob mentality took over despite the fact that the accused was factually innocent. I think the tendency to be sympathetic to the victim blinds people to questions of things like “evidence” and “facts.” I think you have a good point. But, sometimes what those victims’ advocates are saying is, not that rape victims “deserve to be believed,” but that they “deserve to _be taken seriously_,” to not have their accusations dismissed out of hand. This sort of thing has been discussed in the recent Pit thread [The double standards around rape and sexual assault](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=798183). ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/37 "2016-07-16T15:38:03Z")
It’s also worth pointing out that it’s possible that this woman was in fact raped, came back a week later, honestly thought she was pointing out the same guy who raped her, and it turns out it was a completely different person. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/38 "2016-07-16T17:12:58Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I’m not unempathetic. But the victims of rape or the parents of raped children would likely want their rapists to be drawn and quartered in the public square, and we don’t grant them that wish on the basis of their grief, do we ? Justice isn’t about revenge, or even about the victims of crime _per se_. Justice is (or should be) an utilitarian social construct. It’s about punishment, in a way, but only insofar as said punishment is a dissuasive element rather than an eye-for-an-eye one. > > I do agree that what she did was wrong, and needs redressed - but six years in prison is going to destroy the entire rest of her life. Seems harsh for a very old deed she didn’t even commit herself (nor do we have evidence that she egged on) and has had to live with on her conscience for 20 years already. She’s not the same person she was twenty years ago either, philosophically speaking. Fining her for the victims’ family’s benefit and/or giving her tons of community service would seem fairer to me. And again, the victim’s relatives have had 21 years to deal with a grief they now have final closure on. What does the prison sentence change in their lives ? > > As a related anecdote, here in France the statutes of limitations for murder only extends as far as 20 years for the most heinous of crimes i.e. sexual acts on kids, murder with torture, or treasonous/terrorist acts. Crimes against humanity are the only ones without any limitations. The issue is not what the victims, or victims’ families, want. The issue is what society needs to maintain itself in a healthy manner. France may have decided on a different standard; that is their choice. I think that it is a mistake to put a statue of limitations on murder, because (in my view) murder is one act that cannot be “made good” by restitution or penance. The dead person remains dead no matter what you do. The grief of the victim’s family is not the primary measure of loss. What if the victim had no family? Is the murder of a random and friendless homeless person any less bad that the murder of your best friend from a huge family? The loss is the permanent loss of someone’s life. I personally don’t want to be in a society where someone who committed murder 20 years ago can now feel free and easy about it because the law has permanently given up. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/39 "2016-07-16T17:23:39Z")
Wait, what are the facts of the case that support calling her a murderer? Surely it’s not illegal to point to someone and say “that guy raped me”: If it were, it would be impossible for rape victims to seek justice. Yes, maybe the accusation was false, and maybe there’s some charge associated with that, but has it been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the accusation was false? Alternately, has it been proven that she knew what the boyfriend would do, or did do, before or after the fact? Vigilanteism is ugly, and vigilantes should be punished for their actions. You want to throw the book at the guys who actually did the deed, go right ahead. But what’s the evidence that Esparza was involved in anything illegal? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/40 "2016-07-16T17:44:38Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > The issue is not what the victims, or victims’ families, want. The issue is what society needs to maintain itself in a healthy manner. > > France may have decided on a different standard; that is their choice. I think that it is a mistake to put a statue of limitations on murder, because (in my view) murder is one act that cannot be “made good” by restitution or penance. Well, I’m happy to agree to disagree there, but for the sake of debate, I’d opine that rape is another such crime. I’ve spoken with many rape survivors, in fact at times it seems that the majority of women I know have been raped in some way at some point (yes, yes, I’m the common denominator, I _know_ 🙂 ). And that’s another crime that can never be made “right” in many if not most instances. You can put the guy behind bars forever, it doesn’t change the profound psychic damage that has been done in many cases. Some people can never have a healthy sex life again, or trust the rapists’ gender ; some develop paranoia or freaky triggers, etc… Regardless of anything the State may or may not inflict in retaliation. IOW, a raped person remains raped. And yet, in spite of that, rape in the US \*does \*have a statute of limitation in many States - 10 years or less in some, 15 in others, 20 in Ohio. And you know what ? That’s… fine. I believe it’s possible to help salvage the psyche of a rape victim within the first few years. I believe punishing their abuser can help tremendously there. But 20 years later ? After 20 years of being scared of walking alone after dark, of being scared the rapist might track you down, or of having your body just shut down during sex because of a traumatic memory ? What’s going to change ? What social benefit is served (assuming the rapist never raped another person since, etc… obviously) ? There are plenty of other such permanent crimes that do get a statute of limitations. Assault for example - the guy who blinded me in both eyes with a beer bottle 10 or 20 years ago would get away with it. The guy who bankrupted my bank and left me and my family with nothing, forever, might get away with it. The drunk guy who killed my kid in a hit and run could too. Etc… The line is arbitrary, as is every line. There’s little about murder (much less accessory to murder) that makes it special in that regard. The bottomline is that IMO justice delayed is justice denied indeed - but it’s also brand new injustice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033.md?page=3)