# Woman sentenced for murder of her rapist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 16, 2016, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033 "2016-07-16T07:39:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2016, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/101 "2016-07-17T19:46:36Z")
> [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](#): > > I’m having trouble figuring out when it might be essential to convey the gender of someone who murders someone else. > > And if I did feel I needed to, English is a highly flexible language which allows phrasings such as “She’s a murderer!” and “Jane murdered somebody!” and “The killer, a woman of short stature…” Each of these leaves little doubt as to the gender of the criminal; two of them even provide extra information. > > I mean, I’ve gotten well into middle age without ever needing to use the word “murderess” and I haven’t missed it. Any more than I need a specific word to convey the gender of the person who took my ticket on the train, cooked my meal at a restaurant, or played the flute at my wedding. You’re welcome to use the word, and along with LHoD I’m welcome to think your use of the word is silly. (Also unnecessary and inconsistent.) The problem with **LHoD** is the high dudgeon in which he entered the thread, demanding to know what ‘the fuck’ the deal was with **Blake’s** use of the word ‘murderess’ and instructing him from on high that we don’t need to know the killer has a vagina. This is Political Correctness and Social Justice Warriorism at it’s most typical. Political correctness because it assumes the use of gender-specific words are sexist and that to be identified as a woman is somehow demeaning, and SJW-ism because of the gall it takes to presume to attack someone for their use of an apparently non-PC approved word and to issue an instruction not to use it. All this is far sillier in my opinion than the use of the word that triggered it, which, given the topic of the thread, is perfectly germane. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2016, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/102 "2016-07-17T20:15:11Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > So she made up the story about being raped in order to get someone else to murder him so that she could then make up a story about being raped… do you not see that you have fudged the timeline badly here on events? Here’s the thing though, we only have the claim of one person–a convicted killer, that he raped her. It’s entirely possible she was a jilted lover or any number of other things. Without any other evidence I take a neutral view on rape claims, they should be investigated appropriate. Sadly many rapes cannot be proven, that is a sad fact. But this isn’t a neutral case, because we actually know the woman making the rape claim is a liar, a convicted killer, and one who has actually repeatedly said she bears no responsibility for this terrible crime and feels no guilt or responsibility for her own actions. That means she isn’t a “neutral woman who has alleged she was raped”, and the totality of her situation makes me less inclined to believe her. Not least of which because she was complicit in the killing of the one man whom, if we (society) had been able to investigate rape we could’ve interviewed to ascertain to a degree the legitimacy of the charges against him. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2016, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/103 "2016-07-17T20:24:54Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Here’s the thing though, we only have the claim of one person–a convicted killer, that he raped her. It’s entirely possible she was a jilted lover or any number of other things. Without any other evidence I take a neutral view on rape claims, they should be investigated appropriate. Sadly many rapes cannot be proven, that is a sad fact. > > But this isn’t a neutral case, because we actually know the woman making the rape claim is a liar, a convicted killer, and one who has actually repeatedly said she bears no responsibility for this terrible crime and feels no guilt or responsibility for her own actions. > > That means she isn’t a “neutral woman who has alleged she was raped”, and the totality of her situation makes me less inclined to believe her. Not least of which because she was complicit in the killing of the one man whom, if we (society) had been able to investigate rape we could’ve interviewed to ascertain to a degree the legitimacy of the charges against him. I think you did a good job refuting things I never said. The problem I have is that **DrDeth** keeps making statements that Esparza made up the rape claim to cover up the murder, but we know she was making the rape claim PRIOR to the murder. It was not an after-the-fact story, it was a before-the-fact story. So when I see this posted: > [@Blake](#): > > If she had no way of proving him a rapist then there is no reason to believe he was a rapist. The man is completely innocent isn’t he? Is there any reason to believe he did anything wrong, aside from the a story told by the woman who murdered him to try to justify the murder and reduce her punishment? > > There is no reason at all to believe that her victim raped her, is there? That was a nasty story she made up to slur her victim to try to avoid going to jail for murdering him. I’m going to call him out on his fucked up timeline. I’m not the only one; **Damuri Ajashi** has also called him out on this. If you’re trying to convince people that your position on an issue is right, it helps if you describe the issue accurately. Putting false information forward, especially continuing to do it after it’s been pointed out, is something that all Dopers should dissuade, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2016, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/104 "2016-07-17T20:30:22Z")
You shouldn’t read my post as a refutation of anything you said–it wasn’t intended that way. It was an explanation as to one may not trust her claim of rape. It’s personally how I view it, she’s known to be a liar and convicted killer, so I view the authenticity of any of her claims with a suspicious eye. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2016, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/105 "2016-07-17T21:47:48Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I’ve never seen anyone throw such a meaningless fit over a gendered word. Murderess, heiress, waitress, actress, all have gender neutral words, but all are common gendered words used in English. I’m frankly puzzled someone has gotten so angry at the English language. “Murderess” is not a common word used in English. I type “murderess” into Google, I get all definitions, like any word. I type “murderer,” and I get news stories. Pick a (alleged) female murderer. Go ahead and look her up with “murderess.” Google will flat out assume you mistyped and will look for “murder” instead. I had it happen with both Casey Anthony and Amanda Knox. The other words are all words that are on their way out. Female actors by and large prefer “actor.” Certain awards have been renamed “female actor” instead of “actress.” The official language in most places is to use “server,” not waiter or waitress. And I haven’t heard the word “heiress” outside of an old murder mystery. If you’ve never heard anyone get upset over it, then you’ve just not been paying attention to the rest of the world. Gendered nouns have been on their way out for a long time. And using them is commonly considered offensive, like using “Negro.” There are a few hangers on, but “murderess” is not one of them. As for the outrage here, it’s a combination of factors. We have a guy who keeps on saying stuff about the case that wasn’t in the article without providing a citation and who, unlike you, is sure that the woman just made up the rape allegation. That he also uses the word “murderess” paints a picture of bigoted thought processes. Throw in that he keeps on using it, and a defender who is whining about SJW and PC nonsense, and you have the recipe for a pretty nasty fight. The only thing keeping it in check are the rules here. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2016, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/106 "2016-07-17T22:08:58Z")
So who precisely is it who does NOT think this woman should go to jail? Anyone? We’re all quite upset at them, clucking our tongues at those people who will make her a minor celebrity, or who would “be up in arms about the sentence she got”. Can anyone actually point to these people? Are there any in this thread? Also, “murderess” is clearly an archaic and weird term. But note that LHOD didn’t come into this thread and start saying “OMG, you said murderess, you sexist”. He just said “why use that term? why was it necessary?”, and later “well, go ahead and keep using it, but I’ll think it’s silly”. (Not precise quotes.) And from that, people are accusing him of PC and SJW. Because, yeah, disagreeing with people on a message board is really the same thing as, I dunno, forcing people from their jobs. Sure. You wonder why no one takes accusations of SJW and PC seriously? This is one of the reasons… they’re thrown around everywhere. “You’re being PC” is, ironically, just as overused as the PC-accusers think “you’re being racist” is. With the difference being that racism has done actual damage to millions of lives for millennia, while PC barely exists and is impossible to actually define. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2016, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/107 "2016-07-17T22:44:13Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Also, “murderess” is clearly an archaic and weird term. But note that LHOD didn’t come into this thread and start saying “OMG, you said murderess, you sexist”. He just said “why use that term? why was it necessary?”, and later “well, go ahead and keep using it, but I’ll think it’s silly”. (Not precise quotes.) And from that, people are accusing him of PC and SJW. You obviously didn’t read his intial proclamations on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2016, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/108 "2016-07-17T23:04:34Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > You obviously didn’t read his intial proclamations on the subject. Here is his first post, in its entirety: “What the fuck is the deal with “murderess”? The -er suffix is only for dudes now? She’s a murderer, we don’t need a separate suffix to point out her vagina.” How do you get from that to “This is Political Correctness and Social Justice Warriorism at it’s most typical.” Even if I was someone who believed in PCness and SJWness the way you, the problem does not come from disagreement or questioning, it comes from silencing or attacking or labeling or intimidation. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2016, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/109 "2016-07-17T23:31:42Z")
And his post contained three of the four beligerent elements you just listed. Are you truly blind to that? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/110 "2016-07-18T00:11:43Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > You obviously didn’t read his intial proclamations on the subject. Holy crap, even if I stop participating, the hijack continues. Interesting, isn’t it, how much people would rather talk about this than the OP topic? In any case, I WROTE those initial, er “proclamations” (a word as accurate in this case as “greeting cards” or “sweet nothings”), and can confirm that **MaxTheVool** expresses a clear understanding of what I expressed. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/111 "2016-07-18T00:12:38Z")
Why not start a new thread about whether words like “murderess” or whatever are relevant? Okay? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/112 "2016-07-18T00:15:40Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And his post contained three of the four beligerent elements you just listed. Are you truly blind to that? Let me be a bit more specific about what I meant by each of those four words: Silencing: An attempt that goes outside the realm of just the conversation to try to prevent the other person from arguing. Me saying “oh, shut up and be quiet” is not silencing, at least in the sense that I intended it. Talking to the mods to try to get the person banned would be. Erasing all of their posts so other people can’t read them would be. Attacking: I guess arguable… probably my mistake for including such a vague word in the first place, but in fairness, I was typing in a hurry, not trying to really stop and think what differentiates actual-troublesome-thought-policing from saying-stuff-on-a-message-board. But even so, it only even approaches attacking because of the use of profanity. He’s not saying anything about the speaker, just about what was said. Labeling: “Only a _racist_ would say that”. LHOD is not doing this at all Intimidation: This requires large numbers of people who collectively have power over the speaker. Clearly not the case ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/113 "2016-07-18T00:16:06Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Why not start a new thread about whether words like “murderess” or whatever are relevant? Okay? Go for it! ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/114 "2016-07-18T00:22:05Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > So who precisely is it who does NOT think this woman should go to jail? Anyone? We’re all quite upset at them, clucking our tongues at those people who will make her a minor celebrity, or who would “be up in arms about the sentence she got”. Can anyone actually point to these people? Are there any in this thread? Sure. Kobal2 expressed that opinion in a couple of posts early in the thread, suggesting that a fine or community service would be better punishment than prison. And the OP’s link indicates that some advocates for sexual assault victims are of a similar mindset. Those are the posts/opinions I was responding to. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/115 "2016-07-18T00:26:21Z")
**Blake’s** chain of logic seems to go something like this: -The murdered victim was never convicted of rape. -You’re innocent until proven guilty -Therefore the murder victim was innocent -That means he didn’t rape her -Anyway there are other possible reasons for having someone killed -She told at least one lie to protect herself from prison after the murder -Therefore she was almost certainly lying in an attempt to make the murder happen. I find that logic chain somewhat less than compelling. At the same time, any hypothetical person who cavalierly accepted the claims about the murderer’s rape would also earn a raised eyebrow from me. Whether she was raped or not is entirely unclear to me. WHICH IS WHY WE HAVE A LEGAL SYSTEM. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/116 "2016-07-18T04:13:04Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Ahh, no, it doesn’t. > > Firstly that right has to be invoked, and she failed to invoke it. > > Secondly, the right only provides a guaranteed right to silence. It gives no right to lie or to pervert justice. By speaking to the police, she actually waived her right to silence. > > Finally, she didn’t remain silent, she lied. That is not a right that the 5th guarantees. > > I’m not even a lawyer and I know this shit. In layman’s terms, you either shut up or answer truthfully. You don’t have any right to cover up for yourself or other criminals by lying or to collude in a sham marriage in an attempt to thwart justice. > > All those things are crimes in themselves. A fact that she just discovered the hard way. You were talking about how she should go to jail for meeting the murdered dip she wouldn’t have to testify. Hey explanation seems to be internally consistent and consistent with the testimony of other witnesses. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/117 "2016-07-18T04:26:09Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Let’s see. > > On the one hand we have an innocent, hard working and honest young man. Our he was a rapist. > [@](#): > > On the other hand we have a woman who we know as a fact murdered him. In order to have him murdered she told an ex boyfreind that the man raped her. In order to reduce her sentence she told the police the man raped her. Or she was raped and told someone who she should have known would exact vengeance. > [@](#): > > Which of these people is credible? What does the alleged rapists credibility Gahave to do with anything? > [@](#): > > Is there any reliable evidence at all to believe a rape occurred? It’s Is there any reason to believe it didn’t? > [@](#): > > Seriously. OK, first you tell us that you can’t think of another dozen reasons why someone would want another person dead, and we’ll provide them for you. > > But just for the record I want your admission that you can’t think of a single reason why one person would want another dead aside from rape. Because otherwise you are just playing dumb to make you opponents work. It’s usually up to the prosecution to establish motive. In this case the prosecution seemed to think it was rape. > [@](#): > > There are probably a dozen people in this age range murdered by acquaintances every week. Either you think they were all rapists or else you know damn well the possible reasons she could have to want this guy murdered. How many of them are murdered by ex boyfriend who think they are exacting vengeance for rape? > [@](#): > > Seriously? She watches a man being tortured to death on her behalf, and she doesn’t even call an ambulance, much less the police. OK. she may not be a textbook sociopath, but she has such a depraved disregard for human life and human suffering that it makes no difference. perhaps she was scared. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/118 "2016-07-18T04:29:12Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > **Blake’s** chain of logic seems to go something like this: > -The murdered victim was never convicted of rape. > -You’re innocent until proven guilty > -Therefore the murder victim was innocent > -That means he didn’t rape her > -Anyway there are other possible reasons for having someone killed > -She told at least one lie to protect herself from prison after the murder > -Therefore she was almost certainly lying in an attempt to make the murder happen. > > I find that logic chain somewhat less than compelling. > > At the same time, any hypothetical person who cavalierly accepted the claims about the murderer’s rape would also earn a raised eyebrow from me. Whether she was raped or not is entirely unclear to me. > > WHICH IS WHY WE HAVE A LEGAL SYSTEM. Would rape make her crime any less criminal ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/119 "2016-07-18T05:06:38Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Would rape make her crime any less criminal Depending on the circumstances it could strengthen a diminished capacity defense. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/120 "2016-07-18T05:24:01Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Depending on the circumstances it could strengthen a diminished capacity defense. Two weeks after the fact when she didn’t go to the police? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033.md?page=7)