# Woman sentenced for murder of her rapist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 16, 2016, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033 "2016-07-16T07:39:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/121 "2016-07-18T05:33:26Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Let me be a bit more specific about what I meant by each of those four words: > > Silencing: An attempt that goes outside the realm of just the conversation to try to prevent the other person from arguing. Me saying “oh, shut up and be quiet” is not silencing, at least in the sense that I intended it. Talking to the mods to try to get the person banned would be. Erasing all of their posts so other people can’t read them would be. > > Attacking: I guess arguable… probably my mistake for including such a vague word in the first place, but in fairness, I was typing in a hurry, not trying to really stop and think what differentiates actual-troublesome-thought-policing from saying-stuff-on-a-message-board. But even so, it only even approaches attacking because of the use of profanity. He’s not saying anything about the speaker, just about what was said. > > Labeling: “Only a _racist_ would say that”. LHOD is not doing this at all > > Intimidation: This requires large numbers of people who collectively have power over the speaker. Clearly not the case Well, you can explain what you meant by those four words as much as you like but I prefer to view them in their commonly understood sense. Whenever someone comes charging into a thread demanding to know ‘why the fuck’ somebody has used a certain word, castigates him for it and then decrees furthermore that no one has any reason to know the information the word imparts, then yes, he is attacking that poster and attempting to silence him through intimidation. I don’t understand how anyone can fail to see this. One thing I do know is that **LHoD** was damn well aware of it and his intent was to do exactly what I just described. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/122 "2016-07-18T11:41:11Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Would rape make her crime any less criminal No–how on earth do you get that from what I wrote? We have a legal system so that we don’t have to rely on unreliable vigilantism for justice, that’s what I was saying. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > One thing I do know is that **LHoD** was damn well aware of it and his intent was to do exactly what I just described. I’m damn well aware of what I intended to do with my words, which was express bewilderment at folks’ use of a ridiculous word and impatient scorn for its use. Everything else you’re reading into it is a failure on your part. Yes, I’d like for folks not to use it. But “attacking” people? “Intimidating” people? Nonsense. (And if you genuinely think I was attacking the poster, you know where the report button is.) ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/123 "2016-07-18T12:12:38Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But in any other crime, the eyewitness statement of the victim wouldn’t be dismissed as not even existing. It’s pretty common in self defence cases for people to say that someone’s claim that they killed in self defence is not evidence. It’s not true then, either. The difference is that self defence is legal (and moral), vigilante justice is not. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/124 "2016-07-18T15:13:13Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Well, you can explain what you meant by those four words as much as you like but I prefer to view them in their commonly understood sense. Obviously this is just a silly hijack, but stop and think about that exchange for a second… Imagine this conversation: A: Ooh, I think that Obama is a Flurbler! B: Hmm, what makes you think that? A: Well, I think to be a Flurbler, you have to be strong and silent B: I’ve never seen evidence that Obama can bench press a lot, so he’s not very strong. And I’ve definitely heard him talk. He produces sounds. He’s clearly not silent. So he’s definitely not a Flurbler, by your definition A: No, by “strong and silent” I mean strong-of-personality and rarely-speaking, not literally silent B: You can explain what you mean by those two words as much as you like but I prefer to view them in their commonly understood sense Do you see how silly that is? This is not the case where both A and B are being asked to evaluate a statement made by a third party. This is a case where person A has proposed a definition, or a set of qualifications, and where person B has the chance to ask for clarification and explanation, but instead just says “ok, well, you said those words, now I’m going to choose how to interpret them, and even though you later clarified and explained what you meant, I’m going to hold you to my first impression of the words you said and what they mean”. Seriously, what communication will ever occur if everyone time someone says something, and you say “I interpret that to mean X”, and they say “no, I meant Y”, you just say “nope, too late, those words could mean X, I’m going to continue to assume forever that’s what you meant”. That’s not conversation. That’s just a desire to try to win cheap verbal points. > [@](#): > > Whenever someone comes charging into a thread demanding to know ‘why the fuck’ somebody has used a certain word, castigates him for it and then decrees furthermore that no one has any reason to know the information the word imparts I’m not quite sure where you get “decrees”, but this second part of your paragraph is just LHOD restating the common argument against usage of these words in general. Why would you ever need to describe someone as an “aviatrix” instead of an “aviator”? The existence of two words, the “normal” one and the female one, just builds into our language the assumption that the norm is for men to do it, and it’s an unusual exception when a woman does it. I don’t think that this argument always applies in all situations, but it’s quite clear to me that LHOD was just quickly restating that argument here, rather than trying to make some weird point about the actual situation in this actual thread. And note that the thread title is “WOMAN sentenced for the murder of HER rapist”. If LHOD was trying to make some really far out there PC point in which we shouldn’t acknowledge the gender of any of the participants at all, he picked a pretty bad thread to do it in. > [@](#): > > then yes, he is attacking that poster and attempting to silence him through intimidation. All you’re doing is crying wolf here. The next time you describe a situation on, say, a college campus, “they’re attempting to silence the conservative students through intimidation” I’ll think “OMG, they posted one sentence on a message board to the conservative students! And it had FUCK in it!!!” > [@](#): > > One thing I do know is that **LHoD** was damn well aware of it and his intent was to do exactly what I just described. And then gave up on his dastardly plan immediately, in that his next post he was very clearly saying that he just thought the word was silly? Isn’t the Occam’s Razor explanation that his intent was precisely what he said it was? ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/125 "2016-07-18T15:48:31Z")
For opinions on the hijack, go here: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=798723](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=798723) ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/126 "2016-07-18T16:20:05Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I’m not quite sure where you get “decrees”, but this second part of your paragraph is just LHOD restating the common argument against usage of these words in general. Why would you ever need to describe someone as an “aviatrix” instead of an “aviator”? The existence of two words, the “normal” one and the female one, just builds into our language the assumption that the norm is for men to do it, and it’s an unusual exception when a woman does it. I don’t think that this argument always applies in all situations, but it’s quite clear to me that LHOD was just quickly restating that argument here, rather than trying to make some weird point about the actual situation in this actual thread. And note that the thread title is “WOMAN sentenced for the murder of HER rapist”. If LHOD was trying to make some really far out there PC point in which we shouldn’t acknowledge the gender of any of the participants at all, he picked a pretty bad thread to do it in. What this is all about is LHOD using an obscenity, which is generally considered a relatively strong method of expression, and then attempting to depict users of the term “murderess” as being focused on women’s vaginas specifically. As LHOD is ever so fond of pointing out in ATMB threads, there are ways of conveying a message that serve to advance conversation and discussion, and ways of conveying the same message but while also needlessly antagonizing the recipient of that message. This instance definitely fell into the latter category. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/127 "2016-07-18T16:23:51Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > What this is all about is LHOD using an obscenity, which is generally considered a relatively strong method of expression, and then attempting to depict users of the term “murderess” as being focused on women’s vaginas specifically. > > As LHOD is ever so fond of pointing out in ATMB threads, there are ways of conveying a message that serve to advance conversation and discussion, and ways of conveying the same message but while also needlessly antagonizing the recipient of that message. This instance definitely fell into the latter category. Thanks for your input, F-P! I love your analysis of me as much as always! Response to the idea in the IMHO thread, of course. Response to your psychoanalysis is limited to the above amusement. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/128 "2016-07-18T16:29:36Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Thanks for your input, F-P! I love your analysis of me as much as always! > > Response to the idea in the IMHO thread, of course. Response to your psychoanalysis is limited to the above amusement. I don’t know what psychoanalysis you refer to. The notion that you expressed yourself in a rather provocative way does not rely on any sort of psychoanalysis. You may be a bit sensitive here, despite your disclaimer. In line with the above, the “idea” being discussed in the IMHO thread is independent of what’s being discussed here. In particular, I myself have no use for the word “murderess”, but don’t think it deserves to be characterized the way you did here. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/129 "2016-07-18T16:32:59Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > What this is all about is LHOD using an obscenity, which is generally considered a relatively strong method of expression, and then attempting to depict users of the term “murderess” as being focused on women’s vaginas specifically. > > As LHOD is ever so fond of pointing out in ATMB threads, there are ways of conveying a message that serve to advance conversation and discussion, and ways of conveying the same message but while also needlessly antagonizing the recipient of that message. This instance definitely fell into the latter category. Speaking purely for myself and how I read LHOD’s initial comment, since he’s already responded and can speak for himself, I thought his initial comment was a bit antagonistic and tone deaf. But that’s not what SA was accusing him of, and thus not what we were discussing. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/130 "2016-07-18T16:33:01Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t know what psychoanalysis you refer to. … You may be a bit sensitive here :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/131 "2016-07-18T16:42:56Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > But that’s not what SA was accusing him of, and thus not what we were discussing. I think it’s pretty close to it. There’s a lot of crossover between responding in an antagonistic manner and attempting to suppress whatever it is you’re being antagonistic to. You’re speculating that he was just being tone deaf, and that’s one possible basis, but regardless, that type of approach tends to have a suppressing result, so I don’t think SA is far off. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/132 "2016-07-18T17:53:06Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I think it’s pretty close to it. > > There’s a lot of crossover between responding in an antagonistic manner and attempting to suppress whatever it is you’re being antagonistic to. You’re speculating that he was just being tone deaf, and that’s one possible basis, but regardless, that type of approach tends to have a suppressing result, so I don’t think SA is far off. I disagree entirely. The problem on college campuses (to the extent that there is one) isn’t “oh, I’m a Republican, and one person was rude to me”. It’s “oh, I’m a Republican, and I got fired” or “oh, I’m a Republican, and a bunch of people protested and suddenly I got uninvited as commencement speaker”. As I mentioned earlier, there’s some irony here, in that you and SA are effectively “playing the PC card”… pointing at a fairly innocuous example of harmless interaction and saying “PC! PC! PC! SJW!”, just like people “on your side” of the issue are always accusing people of playing the race card or the woman card, looking at a fairly innocuous example of harmless interaction and saying “sexism! racism!”. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/133 "2016-07-18T17:56:11Z")
No, no. FP and SA need a safe space where they don’t feel attacked by naughty words. I’m going to respect that. Slip on over to IMHO for a further discussion of this issue. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/134 "2016-07-18T18:08:46Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I disagree entirely. The problem on college campuses (to the extent that there is one) isn’t “oh, I’m a Republican, and one person was rude to me”. It’s “oh, I’m a Republican, and I got fired” or “oh, I’m a Republican, and a bunch of people protested and suddenly I got uninvited as commencement speaker”. I don’t see these things as fundamentally different. LHOD’s post cast aspersions - whether due to his being tone deaf or being politically correct - on people who use the term “murderess” as attempting “to point out her vagina”, and in a medium in which there’s some expectation that the crowd might join his side. It’s not on the same scale as firing people or the like - nothing on this MB is - but it’s the same general concept. Whether he was attempting to enforce a PC viewpoint is speculation and your guess is as good as mine - and vice versa. > [@](#): > > As I mentioned earlier, there’s some irony here, in that you and SA are effectively “playing the PC card”… pointing at a fairly innocuous example of harmless interaction and saying “PC! PC! PC! SJW!”, just like people “on your side” of the issue are always accusing people of playing the race card or the woman card, looking at a fairly innocuous example of harmless interaction and saying “sexism! racism!”. FTR, I’ve not claimed that it’s PC or SJW, but I do think it’s “pretty close to” what he was being accused of. I also suspect that “fairly innocuous” depends on whose ox is being gored. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/135 "2016-07-18T19:11:53Z")
Had **LHoD** merely said something like, “Murderess? Now there’s a term I haven’t heard in a hairball’s age. Feels like I’m reading a novel written a hundred years ago.” Then his comments would have implied curiosity and confoundment at the use of such an archaic word. But when you say “What the fuck are you using this word for, we don’t need to know she has a vagina”, it’s perfectly obvious that there’s an agenda is behind it. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/136 "2016-07-18T20:18:05Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > No–how on earth do you get that from what I wrote? Then how does it matter whether or not I believe her about the rape? I never intended to get involved in this thread but someone took exception to the notion that I understand the desire for revenge on a rapist. And proceeded to proclaim that the alleged rapist was innocent. > [@](#): > > We have a legal system so that we don’t have to rely on unreliable vigilantism for justice, that’s what I was saying. Ok. I generally agree. I also understand why someone might not trust the justice system ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/137 "2016-07-18T20:56:33Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > No, the dead guy is dead. I’m talking about Esparza. She’s an eyewitness who said Ramirez raped her. > > Granted she might be lying. But in any other crime, the eyewitness statement of the victim wouldn’t be dismissed as not even existing. She’s not the victim. She’s one of the perpetrators. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/138 "2016-07-19T03:37:21Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You were talking about how she should go to jail for meeting the murdered dip she wouldn’t have to testify. > > Hey explanation seems to be internally consistent and consistent with the testimony of other witnesses. Fucking autocorrect. I meant: you were talking about how she should go to jail for marrying the murderer so she wouldn’t have to testify. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/139 "2016-07-19T05:59:39Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The problem with **LHoD** is the high dudgeon in which he entered the thread, demanding to know what ‘the fuck’ the deal was with **Blake’s** use of the word ‘murderess’ and instructing him from on high that we don’t need to know the killer has a vagina. The board you read always sounds so much more interesting than the board I read. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033/140 "2016-07-19T06:29:00Z")
Oh, yeah, well, you should see it from in here. Due to time limitations I omit a ton of stuff. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-sentenced-for-murder-of-her-rapist/760033.md?page=8)