# Woman who allegedly smoked crack and had stillborn baby to be tried for murder **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 20, 2014, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-allegedly-smoked-crack-and-had-stillborn-baby-to-be-tried-for-murder/684187 "2014-03-20T21:03:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2014, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-allegedly-smoked-crack-and-had-stillborn-baby-to-be-tried-for-murder/684187/41 "2014-03-22T10:31:57Z")
I \*truly \*hope the sarcasm was palpable in that post. I just don’t have it in me to put up with the PC police doing an own goal on someone who agrees with their premise. Not tonight, I’m tired. ---
**Author:** ![Octarine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/22d042/32.png) [@Octarine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Octarine)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2014, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-allegedly-smoked-crack-and-had-stillborn-baby-to-be-tried-for-murder/684187/42 "2014-03-22T12:15:46Z")
Putting aside the fact that the crack wasn’t the actual cause of death (which makes this even more insane, if that’s possible at this point), if you truly believe the life of a fetus is of the same worth as the life of the mother, this is one of the logical conclusions you come to. If every time a child dies under suspicious circumstances there’s a police investigation, why wouldn’t there be one for a fetus? After all, a life is a life. Sure, I disagree with the premise of a fetus being a person, but if you accept that, why wouldn’t you accept this? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2014, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-allegedly-smoked-crack-and-had-stillborn-baby-to-be-tried-for-murder/684187/43 "2014-03-22T14:27:04Z")
> [@Octarine](#): > > Putting aside the fact that the crack wasn’t the actual cause of death . . . This Dr. Hayne seems to think it was. ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2014, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-allegedly-smoked-crack-and-had-stillborn-baby-to-be-tried-for-murder/684187/44 "2014-03-22T15:19:06Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I try using a homeowner confronted with an unwanted trespasser as analogy - the homeowner certainly has the right to remove a trespasser, right? Strangely, hardcore prolifers don’t make the connection. To hardcore prolifers, letting someone put their penis in you constitutes inviting the trespasser in. Because, again, it’s all about punishing the woman for having sex. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2014, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-allegedly-smoked-crack-and-had-stillborn-baby-to-be-tried-for-murder/684187/45 "2014-03-22T15:33:25Z")
If the woman is found not guilty, Mississippi will prosecute the father for murder. If she is found to be guilty, Mississippi will prosecute the father for murder anyway, as an accessory. If, by chance, the father is unknown, every male in the entire state, from newborn to 115 will be DNA tested under Mississippi’s Herod Law. When the father is found, he will be prosecuted for fathering a fetus with a satanic umbilical cord while black, found guilty and executed. If the father is deemed to be white, he will be excommunicated from the Southern Baptist Church, weep, be forgiven and welcomed back into the church because who among us hasn’t sinned “and we’re Christians.” The “defacto medical examiner,” Steven Hayne, will run for governor and win in a landslide, then win the presidency. The woman will be repeatedly raped by prison guards, impregnated and die, alone and ignored, on her prison-cell floor because she’s a slut. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-allegedly-smoked-crack-and-had-stillborn-baby-to-be-tried-for-murder/684187/46 "2014-03-22T15:56:52Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > So basically, if any woman has a miscarriage, she should immediately be checked for drugs, alcohol, and anything else that might have contributed to the miscarriage, so that she might be put on trial for murder. > > I’m glad we’re here to make tragedies even more traumatic. Thanks moral crusaders. You’re such awesome people. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If she yields to her coffee addiction and miscarries, into the slammer! It’s just like the case in the OP, isn’t it, just a different drug? > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Apparently, [this sort of thing has been going on for a while now](http://www.salon.com/2013/10/31/the_rights_war_on_pregnant_women/). I’ve been arguing this point for years: If the fetus is considered a person, every miscarriage will have to be investigated as a potential murder. Maybe the mother smoked crack, drank coffee, took an aspirin or “thought bad thoughts” about this “person.” The anti-abortion crowd tell me I’m wrong and it won’t happen like that. Yeah, right. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2014, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-allegedly-smoked-crack-and-had-stillborn-baby-to-be-tried-for-murder/684187/47 "2014-03-22T23:48:56Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > If, by chance, the father is unknown, every male in the entire state, from newborn to 115 will be DNA tested under Mississippi’s Herod Law. On a very special “Maury Povich Show.” ---
**Author:** ![actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e79b87/32.png) [@actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/actualliberalnotoneofthose)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-allegedly-smoked-crack-and-had-stillborn-baby-to-be-tried-for-murder/684187/48 "2014-03-24T01:38:57Z")
I guess I figured after all the work Radley Balko did years ago, that Hayne would be completely discredited. He has to be one of the worst human beings in the world. Complete bullshit from a guy who is a known fraud with a track record of manufacturing “evidence” and completely making up shit. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-allegedly-smoked-crack-and-had-stillborn-baby-to-be-tried-for-murder/684187/49 "2014-03-24T14:20:57Z")
> [@actualliberalnotoneofthose](#): > > I guess I figured after all the work Radley Balko did years ago, that Hayne would be completely discredited. He has to be one of the worst human beings in the world. Complete bullshit from a guy who is a known fraud with a track record of manufacturing “evidence” and completely making up shit. None of this really has anything to do with Hayne’s credibility. All the litigation until now has just been about whether the state can try the mother of a stillborn child for the homicide. _Now_ we get to the actual trial and the sufficiency of the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-allegedly-smoked-crack-and-had-stillborn-baby-to-be-tried-for-murder/684187/50 "2014-03-24T15:32:08Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > This Dr. Hayne seems to think it was. He’s [been known](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Hayne) to make, um, mistakes. Rather [creative ones](http://reason.com/archives/2009/02/19/manufacturing-guilt). Why he’s still got a freedom, never mind a job after that one I cannot say. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-allegedly-smoked-crack-and-had-stillborn-baby-to-be-tried-for-murder/684187/51 "2014-03-24T15:40:27Z")
> [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > Shit, this is the county where I _live_. I may never have sex again. If we stop getting laid, then the terrorists have already won. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-allegedly-smoked-crack-and-had-stillborn-baby-to-be-tried-for-murder/684187/52 "2014-03-24T16:43:01Z")
> [@](#): > > At the time, Hayne, who has never been certified in forensic pathology, was performing the majority of autopsies in Mississippi, some 1,200-1,500 per year. That’s an output other forensic pathologists describe as impossible (he was also holding down two hospital jobs and testifying regularly in court). How can anyone say they are doing 1200-1500 autopsies a year??? For someone to say they are doing more than 3 autopsies per day, every single day 365, AND two hospital jobs AND testifying at trials…this didn’t raise any red flags with anyone on the DA’s office? Nobody thought 'maybe this guy isn’t giving these things the kind of attention they need? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-allegedly-smoked-crack-and-had-stillborn-baby-to-be-tried-for-murder/684187/53 "2014-03-24T16:55:02Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > How can anyone say they are doing 1200-1500 autopsies a year??? For someone to say they are doing more than 3 autopsies per day, every single day 365, AND two hospital jobs AND testifying at trials…this didn’t raise any red flags with anyone on the DA’s office? Nobody thought 'maybe this guy isn’t giving these things the kind of attention they need? The MS medical examiner controversy is basically a case study in dereliction of duty - one involving physicians, attorneys, the Department of Public Safety, and the legislature. [Longread here](http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2269446) (free PDF download.) ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-allegedly-smoked-crack-and-had-stillborn-baby-to-be-tried-for-murder/684187/54 "2014-03-24T18:34:26Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Nobody thought 'maybe this guy isn’t giving these things the kind of attention they need? No, they thought, “This yahoo will swear to any damnfool thing we want to convict somebody. Awesome!” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-allegedly-smoked-crack-and-had-stillborn-baby-to-be-tried-for-murder/684187/55 "2014-03-27T22:14:37Z")
[More from Tennessee:](http://www.salon.com/2014/03/27/tennessee_lawmakers_introduce_proposal_to_jail_women_for_their_pregnancy_outcomes/) > [@](#): > > Lawmakers in Tennessee are currently considering two proposals that could lead to the arrest and criminal prosecution of pregnant people found to be using drugs. > > “While nobody wants to see a mom behind bars, we need to help them see the seriousness behind the offense and help them get the help they need,” said HB 1295 co-sponsor Rep. Roger Kane, a Republican from Knoxville. > > According to the current language, the House measure “provides that a mother can be prosecuted for an assaultive offense or homicide if she illegally takes a narcotic drug while pregnant and the child is born addicted, is harmed, or dies because of the drug.” > > As Bianca Phillips at the Memphis Flyer reports, opponents say that such policies criminalize pregnancy outcomes and can have a chilling effect on people who may want to seek care. (They are correct.) > > “These women need supportive programs. Punitive measures will only make women not seek prenatal care. They will lie to their doctors [about their drug use], and it could lead to unwanted abortions by women who are afraid of getting prosecuted and convicted,” Allison Glass, the statewide organizer for Healthy and Free Tennessee, told the Memphis Flyer. > > Local advocates who oppose the measure are in agreement with major medical associations that have consistently denounced such policies. > > According to the American Medical Association, “Pregnant women will be likely to avoid seeking prenatal or open medical care for fear that their physician’s knowledge of substance abuse or other potentially harmful behavior could result in a jail sentence rather than proper medical treatment.” ---
**Author:** ![WolfpackJeep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpackjeep/32/2921_2.png) [@WolfpackJeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WolfpackJeep)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-allegedly-smoked-crack-and-had-stillborn-baby-to-be-tried-for-murder/684187/56 "2014-03-27T23:27:50Z")
Oh boy, now Kansas wants in on the fun – they’re moving to make any miscarriage an “investigative” event. [link](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/26/1287527/-Kansas-Moves-to-make-Miscarriages-an-Investigation-Event-and-Defund-Planned-Parenthood?detail=facebook) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-allegedly-smoked-crack-and-had-stillborn-baby-to-be-tried-for-murder/684187/57 "2014-03-27T23:59:48Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > Semi-serious question: If a fetus is legally considered a person and can therefore be murdered, could pregnant women not claim some sort of self-defence for abortions if the fetus is harming them, or even with no other justification than “It was a person inside me without permission”? I mean, a person actually being fully _inside_ someone has got to be some kind of assault. I wouldn’t stand for it. Trespassing. And between castle doctrines and standing your ground, it shouldn’t be hard to argue for an abortion. Not that a woman should have to. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2014, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-allegedly-smoked-crack-and-had-stillborn-baby-to-be-tried-for-murder/684187/58 "2014-03-28T00:09:32Z")
> [@WolfpackJeep](#): > > Oh boy, now Kansas wants in on the fun – they’re moving to make any miscarriage an “investigative” event. [link](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/26/1287527/-Kansas-Moves-to-make-Miscarriages-an-Investigation-Event-and-Defund-Planned-Parenthood?detail=facebook) Are they really going to investigate **every** miscarriage in the state?! Whoever handles that is gonna keep pretty busy! Ordinarily, of course, most miscarriages never would come to the attention of public authorities at all; but this bill requires doctors to report them. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2014, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-allegedly-smoked-crack-and-had-stillborn-baby-to-be-tried-for-murder/684187/59 "2014-03-28T00:20:34Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Ordinarily, of course, most miscarriages never would come to the attention of public authorities at all; but this bill requires doctors to report them. And if the “authorities” decide it was an illegitimate miscarriage, could the doctor be prosecuted as an accessory? Why would a doctor take the chance by treating any pregnant women? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2014, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-allegedly-smoked-crack-and-had-stillborn-baby-to-be-tried-for-murder/684187/60 "2014-03-28T00:36:14Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > . . . illegitimate miscarriage . . . First time I’ve ever seen that phrase. Not the last, I do fear. ☹ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-allegedly-smoked-crack-and-had-stillborn-baby-to-be-tried-for-murder/684187.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-allegedly-smoked-crack-and-had-stillborn-baby-to-be-tried-for-murder/684187.md?page=4)