# Woman who attempted suicide while pregnant is accused of murder **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 15, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530 "2011-04-15T19:34:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/21 "2011-04-16T02:59:13Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Yes it is murder and at any rate she’ll be granted her wish, so she should be happy. As a Christian, would _you_ be happy if she received the death penalty? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/22 "2011-04-16T03:30:48Z")
As an aside am I the only one who wants to kick her (former) boyfriend in the balls? A married guy who leads her on (her not knowing he is already married), impregnates her and then abandons her? I cannot conceive how we could write a law to bust fuckers like this but he’s a serious Grade-A prick. The pain and suffering he has caused here is stunning. I can only hope Karma catches up with him in a big way. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/23 "2011-04-16T03:43:31Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Yes I did include it. > > “She was given treatment to counteract the poison and **gave birth on New Year’s Eve** , but her daughter, Angel, suffered seizures and died after four days.” > > Go read it again. Indeed you did, my apologies. I read the linked article and saw the other paragraphs you quoted, but missed that phrase in your quote. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/24 "2011-04-16T04:16:59Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > There may be a difference of intent there. A pregnant woman who is drinking alcohol or taking recreational drugs might harm the late-term fetus without understanding or directly intending to do so, while the woman in the OP deliberately took something with the purpose of causing death. Good point. But the woman who takes drugs I think we would all say is at the least negligent. Drugs are a poison of sorts and can harm or kill the baby. The intent to kill is not there but the possibility exists hence negligence at the least (IANAL…just IMO). Yet the law in Kentucky (and I realize that their law does not apply here but more to get at some legal thinking behind all this) is to not hold the mother responsible at all. In this case I do not think the mother’s intention was to kill her baby (\*maybe). Her intention was to kill herself. Obviously killing herself would take the unborn child with her. I guess we need an attorney to tell us how intent and state-of-mind might apply here. In this case it is confusing. \*- Part of me wonders if she really meant to kill herself or it was a “cry for help” kind of “suicide” or if she hoped the poison would abort the baby and not kill her. I have no idea but her attempt was sorta half-assed and she chose to go to the hospital to be sorted out and live. All guesses and supposition on my part…I have no clue. Just food for thought. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/25 "2011-04-16T04:34:23Z")
I see this as a mental health issue. I wouldn’t prosecute any case against the woman, because to do so would be an act of unwarranted douchery. It would serve the prosecutor right if he suddenly suffered a horrifying neurological event in public. Unfortunately, karma does not exist. Note that I am not claiming that she was legally insane, I’m claiming that it’s humane to make allowances for severe emotional distress rather than to prosecute charges against attempted suicides. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/26 "2011-04-16T04:47:41Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I bet anyone who supports this prosecution of this woman will completely fail to demonstrate how rat poison during pregnancy causes seizures in 4-day olds. What are you asking for, a double-blind study? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/27 "2011-04-16T05:10:15Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > She poisoned herself late in the pregnancy. **Later term elective abortions are not legal.** > > Further, the baby was born alive then died a few days later as a result of the poisoning. But a doctor didn’t do it. \*She \*did. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/28 "2011-04-16T05:12:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > medically necessary abortions Curious…if a woman is going to go mental for being pregnant, couldn’t that be considered a medically necessary abortion? :o ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/29 "2011-04-16T05:23:52Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I bet anyone who supports this prosecution of this woman will completely fail to demonstrate how rat poison during pregnancy causes seizures in 4-day olds. > > Can strychnine cross the placenta? Anyone? > > This case has no basis and will fail miserably. > [@](#): > > Rodenticides: Convulsants > > Crimidine, strychnine, and sodium fluroroacetate and fluroracetamide are **convulsants.** The chemicals act on the heart and nervous systems through heart arrhythmia and interruption of breathing. According to information from the University of Missouri, as little as 15 mg of strychnine can kill a child. > > Read more: Rat Poison & Its Effect on Infants | [eHow.com](http://eHow.com) [http://www.ehow.com/facts\_5916501\_rat-\_amp\_-its-effect-infants.html#ixzz1Jf051cwJ](http://www.ehow.com/facts_5916501_rat-_amp_-its-effect-infants.html#ixzz1Jf051cwJ) While I’m not sure that strychnine crosses the placenta for sure, I’d guess so. Seizures can also happen when someone “comes off” an overdose. _shudder_ I had an allergic reaction once to neuroleptics that caused horrible horrible seizures and ‘awake’ tonic seizures and partial paralysis and uuggghhhhhhhh rat poisoning has to be the worst thing possible. It took weeks to recover. I almost didn’t graduate. _shudder_ I hope that poor infant didn’t feel much. 😕 \*edit Foeticide is now a word? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/30 "2011-04-16T05:34:04Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > But a doctor didn’t do it. \*She \*did. Does it matter? Legally? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/31 "2011-04-16T05:35:34Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Curious…if a woman is going to go mental for being pregnant, couldn’t that be considered a medically necessary abortion? :o So just claim, “I woulda gone insane!” and after that do what you want? Too easy to abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/32 "2011-04-16T05:42:39Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Does it matter? > > Legally? Euthanasia is illegal. Doctor assisted suicide is not. So yes, sometimes it does matter who pulled the trigger. :o ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/33 "2011-04-16T05:43:12Z")
It’s not clear to me what the value of punishing her is. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/34 "2011-04-16T05:43:45Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > So just claim, “I woulda gone insane!” and after that do what you want? > > Too easy to abuse. Abuse? No, I was kind of playing devil’s advocate and picking on Bricker a little bit. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/35 "2011-04-16T06:01:25Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > It’s not clear to me what the value of punishing her is. What’s the value of punishing anyone? Personally I agree that sending her to jail will not prevent another “crime” of the same sort as this. Sending people to jail is not about “value”. It is about punishing them for a wrong that society deems “bad”. Note I am still on the fence about this myself. More Devil’s Advocate at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/36 "2011-04-16T06:13:04Z")
> [@](#): > > **CitizenPained** : Curious…if a woman is going to go mental for being pregnant, couldn’t that be considered a medically necessary abortion? Yes indeed. But she can’t just proclaim that it will drive her crazy. Since “going mental” is a health issue, a doctor would have to certify that continuing the pregnancy would be dangerous to her health (or possibly her life). I wouldn’t think a physician would be likely to do that unless she had a history of mental illness. The irony is that if the physician thinks that she is likely to attempt suicide, then the pregnancy is dangerous to her health and life and that is a reason to terminate a late stage pregnancy. This was true even before _Roe vs Wade_. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/37 "2011-04-16T06:32:06Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > The irony is that if the physician thinks that she is likely to attempt suicide, then the pregnancy is dangerous to her health and life and that is a reason to terminate a late stage pregnancy. This was true even before _Roe vs Wade_. True. But what we know of this case (admittedly little with only the one article to go on) my sense is she wanted the baby and was looking forward to a life with the guy and making a family. The guy yanked the rug from under her and she lost her mind (understandably). Point being is she would be deemed mentally stable and happy till her world collapsed around her. Most people would have a hard time with what she went through (then again most people wouldn’t eat rat poison as a result). ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/38 "2011-04-16T06:48:02Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > What are you asking for, a double-blind study? No. I am asking for evidence that strychnine poisoning lasts for 12 days, and that the doctor’s treatments of the infant’s seizures were geared toward treating strichnyne poisoning (evidence they suspected the seizures were consistent with poisoning). In other words, I want evidence linking the woman’s behavior to the death of the child. A superficial similarity does not establish cause and effect. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > While I’m not sure that strychnine crosses the placenta for sure, I’d guess so. Seizures can also happen when someone “comes off” an overdose. > > _shudder_ I had an allergic reaction once to neuroleptics that caused horrible horrible seizures and ‘awake’ tonic seizures and partial paralysis and uuggghhhhhhhh rat poisoning has to be the worst thing possible. It took weeks to recover. I almost didn’t graduate. _shudder_ I hope that poor infant didn’t feel much. 😕 > > \*edit Foeticide is now a word? Unknown #1 is whether strychnine can act as a teratogen. I am hoping more than a “guess” is being used to prosecute this unfortunate person. I think the kid would have died of seizures regardless. There is no medical evidence that a dose of strychnine has this kind of long-term effect on infants or adults. A lethal dose of strychnine is lethal via paralysis of the diaphram or exhaustion within hours, not days. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/39 "2011-04-16T06:51:13Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Yes indeed. But she can’t just proclaim that it will drive her crazy. Since “going mental” is a health issue, a doctor would have to certify that continuing the pregnancy would be dangerous to her health (or possibly her life). I wouldn’t think a physician would be likely to do that unless she had a history of mental illness. > > The irony is that if the physician thinks that she is likely to attempt suicide, then the pregnancy is dangerous to her health and life and that is a reason to terminate a late stage pregnancy. This was true even before _Roe vs Wade_. I agree on a personal level, but I wasn’t sure if there was legal precedent. But if a woman wants to kill herself, is it not reasonable to assume she’s in no mental state to understand the possible outcomes of a failed suicide? Or even a successful one? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/40 "2011-04-16T07:01:49Z")
[QUOTE] > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > No. I am asking for evidence that strychnine poisoning lasts for 12 days, and that the doctor’s treatments of the infant’s seizures were geared toward treating strichnyne poisoning (evidence they suspected the seizures were consistent with poisoning). In other words, I want evidence linking the woman’s behavior to the death of the child. A superficial similarity does not establish cause and effect. I’m sure you’ll get your answers in the trial. > [@](#): > > Unknown #1 is whether strychnine can act as a teratogen. I am hoping more than a “guess” is being used to prosecute this unfortunate person. Woah, woah. I am not the DA and all I did was put forth a guess. That’s it. There has to be a Doper here who can help you with that one. > [@](#): > > **I think the kid would have died of seizures regardless.** There is no medical evidence that a dose of strychnine has this kind of long-term effect on infants or adults. A lethal dose of strychnine is lethal via paralysis of the diaphram or exhaustion within hours, not days. So you think the infant would have had seizures even if the mother hadn’t overdosed? Why? Clearly the intake was not enough to kill the mother (though we know she had treatment, so I’m not sure exactly the specifics there) but that doesn’t mean that\* if \*the strychnine crossed to the placenta it couldn’t have long term effects (if you consider 12 days to be long term). If your eyes don’t glaze over, [this](http://books.google.com/books?id=LjNh9ASGehUC&pg=PA317&lpg=PA317&dq=strychnine+fetus&source=bl&ots=VYHyuGN1Tb&sig=7yDJWFIYLcM11T_vdQi50u-pauA&hl=en&ei=lD2pTaOJBYq8sQOrlsz5DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false) may provide some clues…? Or[toxicity in rats](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T9X-4H4T32T-1&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F31%2F2005&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=gateway&_origin=gateway&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=dd428fb1bf024a49bca6ce07e1bfbc34&searchtype=a), perhaps? > [@](#): > > Administering strychnine, a potent antagonist of glycine receptors, to pregnant rats caused marked toxic effects on the ensuing embryos. The embryotoxic effects of strychnine were compared with those induced by retinal palmitate during rat neurulation; and it was found that strychnine was stronger than retinal palmitate in a number of abnormalities such as anencephaly, general aplasy and abnormal cerebral vesicles. Although the glycine receptor β1 subunit mRNA was found to be expressed in the embryos when strychnine was administered to the mother rats, its presence may not fully account for the toxic effects and it may be that strychnine is targeting also other molecules, such as the nicotinic receptor that has been found early in development. Did the infant go into status epilepticus? Also, a fetus can have seizures in utero. [Example, though I’m sure I can find more.](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2580021/) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530.md?page=3)