# Woman who attempted suicide while pregnant is accused of murder **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 15, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530 "2011-04-15T19:34:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/41 "2011-04-16T07:06:30Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I think the kid would have died of seizures regardless. There is no medical evidence that a dose of strychnine has this kind of long-term effect on infants or adults. A lethal dose of strychnine is lethal via paralysis of the diaphram or exhaustion within hours, not days. Well, you are guessing here too (we all are…we are missing a lot of data). The placental barrier is not some magical barrier. We know that various drugs can affect a fetus. I do not know (read that again) that rat poison can breach that barrier but I’d be kinda surprised if it had no effect on the fetus. I do not know how you treat strychnine poisoning but it is possible those treatments could have an effect too. Correlation is not causation and till someone with the resume to speak authoritatively shows up we can’t know for sure. For my part I’d be surprised if eating rat poison wouldn’t affect a fetus but I admit I really do not know. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/42 "2011-04-16T07:12:34Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Well, you are guessing here too (we all are…we are missing a lot of data). > > The placental barrier is not some magical barrier. We know that various drugs can affect a fetus. > > I do not know (read that again) that rat poison can breach that barrier but I’d be kinda surprised if it had no effect on the fetus. > > I do not know how you treat strychnine poisoning but it is possible those treatments could have an effect too. > > Correlation is not causation and till someone with the resume to speak authoritatively shows up we can’t know for sure. > > For my part I’d be surprised if eating rat poison wouldn’t affect a fetus but I admit I really do not know. I think it’s completely fair to speculate or guess and be honest about it. It seems as though **Inbred Mm domesticus** has taken the mantle of apologist for this woman. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/43 "2011-04-16T07:17:21Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Note that I am not claiming that she was legally insane, I’m claiming that it’s humane to make allowances for severe emotional distress rather than to prosecute charges against attempted suicides. Isn’t one of the reason we have trials so that a jury has the option of making such allowances? ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/44 "2011-04-16T08:12:46Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > So you think the infant would have had seizures even if the mother hadn’t overdosed? Why? Clearly the intake was not enough to kill the mother (though we know she had treatment, so I’m not sure exactly the specifics there) but that doesn’t mean that\* if \*the strychnine crossed to the placenta it couldn’t have long term effects (if you consider 12 days to be long term). My primary ‘Why?’ is logic based on my knowledge of the drug. A very nice example of treating strychnine poisoning and strychnine’s metabolism is provided here: [it’s only 2 pages and an easy read](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1705440/?page=1). My secondary ‘Why?’ is provided by you: > [@CitizenPained](#): > > If your eyes don’t glaze over, [this](http://books.google.com/books?id=LjNh9ASGehUC&pg=PA317&lpg=PA317&dq=strychnine+fetus&source=bl&ots=VYHyuGN1Tb&sig=7yDJWFIYLcM11T_vdQi50u-pauA&hl=en&ei=lD2pTaOJBYq8sQOrlsz5DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false) may provide some clues…? On the page you linked to and the page prior, the authors state there is a neonatal and adult form of the glycine receptor. The neonatal form has a low affinity (doesn’t bind well to and requires a higher concentration of strychnine to be anatagonized) for strychnine and they even cite an example where strychnine had no effect on neonatal mice (last full paragraph on the page). That said, their citations primarily concern rodents and there is not a one-to-one relationship between stages in human and rodent gestation. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > Or[toxicity in rats](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T9X-4H4T32T-1&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F31%2F2005&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=gateway&_origin=gateway&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=dd428fb1bf024a49bca6ce07e1bfbc34&searchtype=a), perhaps? That is [neurulation](http://biology.kenyon.edu/courses/biol114/Chap14/Chapter_14.html). That’s equivalent to the beginning of nervous system development, while the infant was in the last stages of nervous system development. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > Did the infant go into status epilepticus? Also, a fetus can have seizures in utero. URL=“[Prenatal Diagnosis of Fetal Seizure: A Case Report - PMC](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2580021/)”]Example, though I’m sure I can find more. I agree. I also think it had a series of them at birth due to a birth defect, but I see no reason to believe that birth defect was the result of strychnine. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Well, you are guessing here too (we all are…we are missing a lot of data). > > The placental barrier is not some magical barrier. We know that various drugs can affect a fetus. > > I do not know (read that again) that rat poison can breach that barrier but I’d be kinda surprised if it had no effect on the fetus. > > I do not know how you treat strychnine poisoning but it is possible those treatments could have an effect too. > > Correlation is not causation and till someone with the resume to speak authoritatively shows up we can’t know for sure. > > For my part I’d be surprised if eating rat poison wouldn’t affect a fetus but I admit I really do not know. I have the background to be making educated guesses and I really don’t see it. Hopefully the links I provided and those provided by **CitizenPained** make my hesitation to accept the prosecution’s hypothesis clearer. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > I think it’s completely fair to speculate or guess and be honest about it. It seems as though **Inbred Mm domesticus** has taken the mantle of apologist for this woman. I am not an apologist I think, I see the how the link between the strychnine poisoning and the newborn’s seizures feel like they should logically be there, but it wasn’t there for me and the reasons include: 1. no drug around by the time the baby was born 2. a really effective dose probably would have killed the infant perinatally 3. the right glycine receptor was probably not expressed yet (not 100% on it) ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/45 "2011-04-16T08:22:50Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I am not an apologist I think, I see the how the link between the strychnine poisoning and the newborn’s seizures feel like they should logically be there, but it wasn’t there for me and the reasons include: > > 1. no drug around by the time the baby was born > 2. a really effective dose probably would have killed the infant perinatally > 3. the right glycine receptor was probably not expressed yet (not 100% on it) Thanks for the info. Like I said, I’m sure we’ll all find out. If the strychnine did cause neonatal seizures, is it possible that those seizures resulted in brain damage? I guess what I’m wondering is - if the strychnine (and its counter treatments) affected the fetus negatively - isn’t it possible that the effects were permanent? or at least ‘long term’? - because the fetus would have suffered neural damage (lack of oxygen, the strychnine itself, and 10823290 things I don’t know for lack of being an MD) While I don’t think the poor woman should be charged for murder, I do agree with a criminal charge of some kind, be it child endangerment or abuse. Unfortunately (?) the child was born, lived, and (presumably) suffered. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/46 "2011-04-16T08:32:27Z")
Wait – if the mother had been given a ton of neuroleptics, is it possible the infant was in withdrawal? From what I remember, nearly every major anti convulsant on the market was known to cause risks to the fetus. So if the strychnine didn’t affect the fetus, the treatment may have. Things like Diazepam, Tegretol, etc, all cross the placenta. I usually hear about facial deformities and such, but who knows. If the infant was in withdrawal or suffered CNS damage, it is not surprising it had seizures. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/47 "2011-04-16T14:12:49Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Wait – if the mother had been given a ton of neuroleptics, is it possible the infant was in withdrawal? From what I remember, nearly every major anti convulsant on the market was known to cause risks to the fetus. > > So if the strychnine didn’t affect the fetus, the treatment may have. Things like Diazepam, Tegretol, etc, all cross the placenta. I usually hear about facial deformities and such, but who knows. If the infant was in withdrawal or suffered CNS damage, it is not surprising it had seizures. Well that’s it, then. Charge the doctors with murder. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/48 "2011-04-16T14:35:46Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I bet anyone who supports this prosecution of this woman will completely fail to demonstrate how rat poison during pregnancy causes seizures in 4-day olds. > > Can strychnine cross the placenta? Anyone? > > This case has no basis and will fail miserably. > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > No. I am asking for evidence that strychnine poisoning lasts for 12 days, and that the doctor’s treatments of the infant’s seizures were geared toward treating strichnyne poisoning (evidence they suspected the seizures were consistent with poisoning). In other words, I want evidence linking the woman’s behavior to the death of the child. A superficial similarity does not establish cause and effect. First of all, do we know it was strychnine? When I hear “rat poison”, I think of anticoagulants (a massive overdose of coumadin), which does cross the placental barrier and could easily have caused bleeding in the brain of the fetus. Increased intercranial pressure from the bleeding or scarring from the healing of the bleed in the brain could absolutely cause seizures at a later date. But let’s go with strychnine. Say it began to paralyze the mother’s diaphragm before she got treated. She’s now short of breath and short of oxygen. The first place a pregnant woman’s body vasoconstricts, to shunt blood and oxygen to her brain and heart, is the umbilical artery. That means the fetus is deprived of oxygen in \*her \*brain. A history of hypoxia (lack of oxygen) in the brain can also cause seizures at a later date. And it need not cross the placental barrier to do so (although I believe it does cross, regardless.) It’s absolutely plausible that “rat poison” could later cause fatal seizures in the fetus. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/49 "2011-04-16T14:55:41Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > It’s not clear to me what the value of punishing her is. She may have murdered someone? Is this a trick question? Retribution, Deterrence, Incapacitation, Rehabilitation? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/50 "2011-04-16T16:16:44Z")
Morally: I think she was not thinking rationally \ and the question becomes one of intent. Did she try to kill herself or herself and the baby? Or as someone pointed out, maybe she was trying to abort (she was from China. Does anyone know the traditional way to abort a fetus in China?). Without more info, I’m inclined to give her a pass. Legally: IANAL but unless there is a law against third trimester attempted abortions in Indiana, I don’t think she can be prosecuted for what she did to the baby before she was born. It is funadamental to Roe v. Wade that a fetus does not have rights under the 14th Amendment until it is born. We can certainly argue if this also means that a person that causes a woman to have a miscarriage can legally be held accountable for causing the fetus’ death (murder or manslaughter). But in this case, I think the state cannot hold her for the death. To be honest, as long as abortions by lethally injecting the fetus with saline are legal (are they in Indiana?) then this cannot be murder. Soapbox: The laws in this country, both Federally and at a state level are too contradictory to ever answer a question like this. Is the fetus a human? If a woman is walking into Planned Parenthood? No. If some nutjob hits her in the womb with a baseball bat while she walks into Planned Parenthood? Yes. On Day 90? No. On Day 91? Maybe. On Day 181? Probably or possibly or maybe or no. When Mom is in an HOV lane? According to urban legend (so may be true or not)? Yes. Before 2003, you could even yank the fetus’ head out into world before killing it (and I am pro-choice). Can we at least get some sembalance of consistancy. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/51 "2011-04-16T16:22:41Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > She may have murdered someone? Is this a trick question? Retribution, Deterrence, Incapacitation, Rehabilitation? Retribution for or from whom ? The boyfriend clearly didn’t give a shit about the baby. There’s no grieving widow or pale faced orphan to avenge here. Nobody’s going to get closure or a misplaced sense of justice from killing her or sending her to the pokey. Deterrence ? She tried to\* kill herself\*. It’s not like further consequences were on her mind. Had a police officer-like angel whispered in her ear (or that of any like-minded woman) “don’t do this, you’ll go to jail !” at the time it wouldn’t have changed her disposition, would it ? I won’t even touch the irony of getting the death penalty for an attempted suicide - too easy. Incapacitation ? The baby’s dead. That’s done. She’s not going to feed other pregnant women rat poison, or get pregnant again just so she can drop more rat poison for kicks, I don’t think. Rehabilitation ? From what, her long career in baby-killing ? Yeah, a couple years amongst actual crooks and killers is a great idea for that. I’m sure she’ll come out much better adjusted and won’t try to kill herself so much after a decade of forced cohabitation with Large Marge. It’s a positively horrible story, and I really don’t feel nor think anything can be done to make it less so, but especially not by throwing the book at her. Get her a shrink or twelve, possibly a prolonged stay in a nice [del]laughing academy[/del]mental institution until she’s learned to process the pain and move on (not that she really ever will), and that’s that. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/52 "2011-04-16T16:28:40Z")
Scott Peterson immediately comes to mind here. He was convicted of TWO counts of murder because his wife was pregnant. I’m wondering how laws work in jurisdictions that prohibit late term abortions and the woman has one anyways. Is it a murder charge or an “illegal abortion at too late of a late term” charge? I think that should guide this prosecution. In other words, what if this woman said, “Fuck the law, I want an abortion.” She then finds a doctor who performs it for her. What would she and the doctor be charged with? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/53 "2011-04-16T19:39:25Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Retribution for or from whom ? The boyfriend clearly didn’t give a shit about the baby. There’s no grieving widow or pale faced orphan to avenge here. Nobody’s going to get closure or a misplaced sense of justice from killing her or sending her to the pokey. Is this another trick question? Retribution for killing a child. It doesn’t matter if it’s her child, she still doesn’t get to murder it. We don’t let single mothers kill their children. > [@Kobal2](#): > > Deterrence ? She tried to\* kill herself\*. It’s not like further consequences were on her mind. Had a police officer-like angel whispered in her ear (or that of any like-minded woman) “don’t do this, you’ll go to jail !” at the time it wouldn’t have changed her disposition, would it ? I won’t even touch the irony of getting the death penalty for an attempted suicide - too easy. Ummm, deterence is both general and specific. In this case, charging her will likely deter her from getting pregnant and murdering that child. It may also deter other mothers by convincing them to get help before they kill their child. > [@Kobal2](#): > > Incapacitation ? The baby’s dead. That’s done. She’s not going to feed other pregnant women rat poison, or get pregnant again just so she can drop more rat poison for kicks, I don’t think. She may well get pregnant again. > [@Kobal2](#): > > Rehabilitation ? From what, her long career in baby-killing ? Yeah, a couple years amongst actual crooks and killers is a great idea for that. I’m sure she’ll come out much better adjusted and won’t try to kill herself so much after a decade of forced cohabitation with Large Marge. She can get help. > [@Kobal2](#): > > It’s a positively horrible story, and I really don’t feel nor think anything can be done to make it less so, but especially not by throwing the book at her. Get her a shrink or twelve, possibly a prolonged stay in a nice [del]laughing academy[/del]mental institution until she’s learned to process the pain and move on (not that she really ever will), and that’s that. If she’s mentally ill, by all means incapacitate her and get her the help she needs to be rehabilitated. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/54 "2011-04-16T20:47:12Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Isn’t one of the reason we have trials so that a jury has the option of making such allowances? Prosecutors also have discretion not to pursue cases. In this case, there is no serious risk of recidivism, and going to trial is just piling on a woman who has suffered two enormous losses in a year. Is this the best use of the court’s time? Or is it an exercise in moralistically whipping a person of “targetable” social standing? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/55 "2011-04-16T20:53:12Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > As a Christian, would _you_ be happy if she received the death penalty? > [@CitizenPained](#): > > Curious…if a woman is going to go mental for being pregnant, couldn’t that be considered a medically necessary abortion? :o No, its the _life_ of the mother not some melancholy. > [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > This kind of cruel flippancy does your side of the debate no favors. > > The woman in this story was suffering horribly. She ate rat poison for goodness sake! Not exactly the best way to go. Even if what she did could be considered murder (which I disagree with), in my opinion her obvious mental anguish at the time of the act makes her unable to be held responsible. By that sort of logic you can say all murderers are mentally ill because it is truly unusual that anyone should take another human life for little or no reason and thus they should not be punished. Perhaps she was willing to inflict pain on others even at the expense of herself. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > It’s not clear to me what the value of punishing her is. As an act of justice. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/56 "2011-04-16T20:56:27Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > If she’s mentally ill, by all means incapacitate her and get her the help she needs to be rehabilitated. The prison system isn’t set up for mental illness, let alone rehabilitation. This is the last place to look to help her. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/57 "2011-04-16T20:58:13Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > No, its the _life_ of the mother not some melancholy. > > By that sort of logic you can say all murderers are mentally ill because it is truly unusual that anyone should take another human life for little or no reason and thus they should not be punished. > > Perhaps she was willing to inflict pain on others even at the expense of herself. > > As an act of justice. I was going to say that you didn’t answer my question, but reading further I think that, sadly, you have. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/58 "2011-04-16T21:00:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > As a Christian, would _you_ be happy if she received the death penalty? No. I don’t think most death penalty supporters-Christian or otherwise- are truly glad if a murderer is executed. However it is necessary for justice/ ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/59 "2011-04-16T21:02:17Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Perhaps she was willing to inflict pain on others even at the expense of herself. Perhaps. If so, I could see charging her with something like “Attempting to perform a medical procedure without a medical license.” That is, an abortion. DIY abortions \*should \*be discouraged; they’re not safe. Her intent would be key, of course. Did she try to kill herself, or did she try to kill her fetus? The first is suicide, the second is abortion. Neither one is attempting to kill a legal (or spiritual, IMHO, but of course we can go many rounds on that debate) person other than herself. She didn’t attempt or succeed at killing the (legal, spiritual, unarguable) person lying in the NICU after her birth. That’s what RvW found, ultimately - that legally, a fetus isn’t a person. The laws making the killing of a fetus a murder violate that, IMHO. If those were overturned as they should be, there’d be no precedent for this case. That’s why they’re a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/60 "2011-04-16T21:07:01Z")
I can’t see any usefulness in charging her with murder. Hell, around here anyone who with “suicidal ideations” is presumed to be mentally ill. I’d say she went a step or two beyond ideations. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530.md?page=4)