# Woman who attempted suicide while pregnant is accused of murder **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 15, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530 "2011-04-15T19:34:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/61 "2011-04-16T21:10:46Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > No. I don’t think most death penalty supporters-Christian or otherwise- are truly glad if a murderer is executed. However it is necessary for justice/ Have you ever considered dipping into the _New_ Testament for guidance once in a while? Just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/62 "2011-04-16T21:15:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Have you ever considered dipping into the _New_ Testament for guidance once in a while? > Just sayin’. Romans 13:4 > [@](#): > > For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath **to bring punishment on the wrongdoer**. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/63 "2011-04-16T21:21:01Z")
The bible is irrelevant because God isn’t real. Please keep in mind that not everyone turns to bronze-age myths for guidance on right and wrong. Do you really think that justice is impossible in countries without a death penalty? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/64 "2011-04-16T21:25:08Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > The bible is irrelevant because God isn’t real. The Bible is not remotely irrelevant when asking a self-professed Christian how he feels _as a Christian_ about the death penalty. It’s a total hijack of the _thread_, but it’s not irrelevant to the question. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/65 "2011-04-16T22:00:16Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Is this another trick question? Retribution for killing a child. It doesn’t matter if it’s her child, she still doesn’t get to murder it. We don’t let single mothers kill their children. Trick ? No, not a trick question in the sense that I wasn’t laying a rhetorical trap on you, **Bricker** -style. It is however tricky for me to figure out the point of retribution in absolute. The dead don’t care - only the living do. The people left behind, or those harmed by a given crime (be it physical, spiritual or material harm), they can be helped by this idea of retribution, yes. That at least makes some sense to me. Retribution for its own sake on the other hand doesn’t really. I don’t quite see what purpose it could serve, neither for the persons involved in this particular case nor in the grand scheme of things. > [@](#): > > Ummm, deterence is both general and specific. In this case, charging her will likely deter her from getting pregnant and murdering that child. It may also deter other mothers by convincing them to get help before they kill their child. It’s not like she was doing it for the kicks, you know. Pretty sure there’s no percentage in getting suicidal. As for deterrence to others, as I’ve already said when you’ve reached a point where you’re popping rat poison, the rest of the world and what it thinks or could do to you if you miss yourself doesn’t really matter any more, does it ? > [@](#): > > She may well get pregnant again. That she may. So what ? It wasn’t the pregnancy itself that drove her to this extremity. If a psych exam determines she’s likely to “revisit the scene of her crime” as it were, then you may have a point. From where I’m standing however, I really don’t see a second strike coming any time soon. > [@](#): > > She can get help. Not in prison she can’t. Even less so on the chair. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/66 "2011-04-16T22:05:38Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > The Bible is not remotely irrelevant when asking a self-professed Christian how he feels _as a Christian_ about the death penalty. > > It’s a total hijack of the _thread_, but it’s not irrelevant to the question. Hah, fair enough. I’d still like to know if he thinks justice is possible in a country without the death penalty, though. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/67 "2011-04-16T22:15:12Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > First of all, do we know it was strychnine? When I hear “rat poison”, I think of anticoagulants (a massive overdose of coumadin), which does cross the placental barrier and could easily have caused bleeding in the brain of the fetus. Increased intercranial pressure from the bleeding or scarring from the healing of the bleed in the brain could absolutely cause seizures at a later date. Your post made me go look it up and I see that I had something new to learn: rat poison probably does not contain strychnine (I can’t even tell if it is legal in the USA). Browsing about anti-coagulants showed they are supposed to take an extended period of time to kill the rat. I had always thought rat poison was basically strychnine. I had no idea, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/68 "2011-04-16T23:08:06Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Your post made me go look it up and I see that I had something new to learn: rat poison probably does not contain strychnine (I can’t even tell if it is legal in the USA). Browsing about anti-coagulants showed they are supposed to take an extended period of time to kill the rat. I had always thought rat poison was basically strychnine. I had no idea, thanks. You’re welcome. The “antidote” as it were, is massive amounts of Vitamin K. The anticoagulant in rat poison blocks the action of Vitamin K, and makes it so the blood can’t clot. If we can get the patient enough Vitamin K, there’s not enough anticoagulant to block it all, and the patient’s body can form blood clots again. A lot of damage can happen in the meantime, though, from bleeding in the gut, the brain, the liver, the kidneys, out any cuts you might get, from any varicose veins or hemorrhoids, etc. Ugly, ugly way to die. I wouldn’t wish it on…well, a rat, much less a person. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/69 "2011-04-16T23:39:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The prison system isn’t set up for mental illness, let alone rehabilitation. This is the last place to look to help her. That’s why if someone is found mentally ill and not responsible for their actions, they don’t go to prison, they go into a mental health treatment facility. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/70 "2011-04-16T23:43:32Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Trick ? No, not a trick question in the sense that I wasn’t laying a rhetorical trap on you, **Bricker** -style. It is however tricky for me to figure out the point of retribution in absolute. The dead don’t care - only the living do. The people left behind, or those harmed by a given crime (be it physical, spiritual or material harm), they can be helped by this idea of retribution, yes. That at least makes some sense to me. The reasons I gave for her punishment are the same used generally in every criminal justice case. They’re the four main justifications we have punishment in our criminal justice system; the big four you spend a couple days debating in Crim Law 101. Some apply better than others, some don’t apply at all, it depends on the case. But the point I was making was that I didn’t see any real difference between this case and any other case. I didn’t mean to start a debate about the propriety of punishments in general, which you seem to want to engage in. Sorry I wasn’t clear enough. If you wish to debate the justifications for any punishment, have at it. But outside of the mental illness issue, I don’t really see this case as so special the rationale’s for punishment don’t count. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/71 "2011-04-16T23:51:53Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Have you ever considered dipping into the _New_ Testament for guidance once in a while? > Just sayin’. Jewish law allows for abortion in cases of mental illness. :o ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/72 "2011-04-16T23:56:48Z")
Am I the only one here who thinks that you have the right to end your own life? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/73 "2011-04-17T00:04:45Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Am I the only one here who thinks that you have the right to end your own life? No, you’re not. But I’m not seeing where it’s relevant in this thread, either. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/74 "2011-04-17T03:53:34Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Hah, fair enough. I’d still like to know if he thinks justice is possible in a country without the death penalty, though. > [@The\_Tooth](#): > > The bible is irrelevant because God isn’t real. Please keep in mind that not everyone turns to bronze-age myths for guidance on right and wrong. Do you really think that justice is impossible in countries without a death penalty? I don’t think complete justice is acheived without death for murderers but I don’t think complete justice is possible in this world either. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > Jewish law allows for abortion in cases of mental illness. :o Which is largely traditions of the Pharisees or other sects. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/75 "2011-04-17T05:10:13Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > No, you’re not. But I’m not seeing where it’s relevant in this thread, either. It’s relevant because she wanted to end her own life. She failed and possibly caused the death of an infant. If she had succeeded we’d all just tsk tsk at the tragedy and go kick her boyfriend in the nuts. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/76 "2011-04-17T05:11:15Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Which is largely traditions of the Pharisees or other sects. What, like Judaism in the last 1,500 years? 😕 \*edit: If you look closely at Leviticus (I believe that’d be the book you call it), you’ll find that Jewish law is not unlike the Supreme Court - at certain points a fetus is more of a human than a fetus. edit: It’s Exodus. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/77 "2011-04-17T13:02:17Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > It’s relevant because she wanted to end her own life. She failed and possibly caused the death of an infant. If she had succeeded we’d all just tsk tsk at the tragedy and go kick her boyfriend in the nuts. But no one’s taking her to task - here or in the courts - for the attempt at taking her \*own \*life. It’s the consequences it had on the fetus that are bringing her before the judge and being discussed in this thread now. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/78 "2011-04-17T13:29:29Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I don’t think complete justice is acheived without death for murderers but I don’t think complete justice is possible in this world either. Well, life isn’t fair. As for this poor woman, execution will accomplish nothing. In the broader sense, capital punishment isn’t a deterrent, is more expensive than imprisonment, and results in the deaths of innocents due to your justice system being less than perfect. This has been gone over a thousand times. Besides, her death will not result in “complete justice” however you choose to define it. You just said so. Complete justice is not possible in this world, you said. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/79 "2011-04-17T14:31:03Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Well, life isn’t fair. As for this poor woman, execution will accomplish nothing. In the broader sense, capital punishment isn’t a deterrent, is more expensive than imprisonment, and results in the deaths of innocents due to your justice system being less than perfect. This has been gone over a thousand times. > > Besides, her death will not result in “complete justice” however you choose to define it. You just said so. Complete justice is not possible in this world, you said. Which is why I am skeptical of the death penalty. Although if the woman was executed in this case assuming she is guilty of the crime, it would be an _individual_ case of complete justice. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/80 "2011-04-17T14:46:06Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > She may have murdered someone? Is this a trick question? Retribution, Deterrence, Incapacitation, Rehabilitation? It’s not clear to me how significant any of those are in this case, especially deterrence. Rehabilitation, maybe, in the sense of getting her some mental health treatment. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530.md?page=5)