# Woman who attempted suicide while pregnant is accused of murder **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 15, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530 "2011-04-15T19:34:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/121 "2011-04-18T14:23:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Based on your apparent understanding of the Christian faith, it would seem impossible for Christians to participate in any functioning society. How could a society even have a justice system? > > “Ladies and gentleman of the jury, the evidence will show that the accused donned a mask, entered the First National Bank branch on Elm Street, displayed a revolver, and handed the teller a note demanding all the money in his cash drawer. As we are all Christians, however, and forbidden to judge anyone, I just wanted to advise you that the accused has already been set free, since after all none of us are without sin.” > > Doesn’t really seem like a workable system, does it? > > And so perhaps your understanding of the meaning of the passages you quoted is flawed. Or maybe the purpose of Christianity wasn’t to work within the system as it now exists? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/122 "2011-04-18T15:30:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Or maybe the purpose of Christianity wasn’t to work within the system as it now exists? On the contrary, Paul did participate in a trial under the Romans, and convert Christians remained the legions, as jail wardens, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/123 "2011-04-18T17:44:54Z")
I have to say I was utterly stunned to read a prosecutor thinks this is a good use of state resources or that it makes any sense to punish a woman for having attempted suicide and possibly for having provoked the death of her infant. Really quite stunning. Even more stunning, that there are defenders for this grotesque mis-allocation of time and resources. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/124 "2011-04-18T21:11:06Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > I have to say I was utterly stunned to read a prosecutor thinks this is a good use of state resources or that it makes any sense to punish a woman for having attempted suicide and possibly for having provoked the death of her infant. > > Really quite stunning. > > Even more stunning, that there are defenders for this grotesque mis-allocation of time and resources. So infanticide isn’t a crime I suppose nor is attempted suicide causing the deaths of others? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/125 "2011-04-18T21:31:04Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > I have to say I was utterly stunned to read a prosecutor thinks this is a good use of state resources or that it makes any sense to punish a woman for having attempted suicide and possibly for having provoked the death of her infant. > > Really quite stunning. > > Even more stunning, that there are defenders for this grotesque mis-allocation of time and resources. This case is a paradigm for awkward facts. If the woman fed rat poision to her newborn child and took it herself in the type of murder/suicide deal that is not uncommon, I doubt anyone would be saying that the involvement of the state would be a waste of time - or say if her husband did the same. The only reason that it is even a controversy is that it appears to so many to be a cat’s paw for the abortion debate. [In Canada, there exists a seperate crime of “infanticide” which allocates lesser responsibility to women who murder newborns while their minds are disturbed by post-partum depression … obviously, this would not be an issue in this case.] ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/126 "2011-04-18T21:38:15Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > This case is a paradigm for awkward facts. If the woman fed rat poision to her newborn child and took it herself in the type of murder/suicide deal that is not uncommon, I doubt anyone would be saying that the involvement of the state would be a waste of time - or say if her husband did the same. > > The only reason that it is even a controversy is that it appears to so many to be a cat’s paw for the abortion debate. > > [In Canada, there exists a seperate crime of “infanticide” which allocates lesser responsibility to women who murder newborns while their minds are disturbed by post-partum depression … obviously, this would not be an issue in this case.] That Canadian law is disgusting. Abortions are now de facto available for anyone for a while after birth. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/127 "2011-04-18T21:54:43Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > That Canadian law is disgusting. Abortions are now de facto available for anyone for a while after birth. It’s lesser responsibility, not no responsibility. The effect is to limit imprisionment to no more than five years. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/128 "2011-04-18T22:01:32Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > It’s lesser responsibility, not no responsibility. The effect is to limit imprisionment to no more than five years. In other words, make it into a trivial misdemenor because that’s just the maximum sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/129 "2011-04-18T22:13:10Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > In other words, make it into a trivial misdemenor because that’s just the maximum sentence. It’s classified as an indictable offence (in Canada, the equivalent to the US “misdemenor” category is classified as “summary conviction” offences). So no, it is not open season on newborns. That doesn’t mean that the statute is not open to criticism. Just don’t mischaracterize what it states. First, in order to qualify, there must be evidence that her “mind is disturbed” for the reasons stated: > [@](#): > > 1. A female person commits infanticide when by a wilful act or omission she causes the death of her newly-born child, if at the time of the act or omission she is not fully recovered from the effects of giving birth to the child and by reason thereof or of the effect of lactation consequent on the birth of the child her mind is then disturbed. Then, it is still an indictable offence: > [@](#): > > 1. Every female person who commits infanticide is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years. This law is open to the criticism that “not guilty by reason of insanity” is usually a complete defence to a criminal indictment; it creates an awkward halfway-house for a very specific form of temporary insanity. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/130 "2011-04-18T22:52:36Z")
Sorry, **Marley**. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > So infanticide isn’t a crime I suppose nor is attempted suicide causing the deaths of others? [_Mens rea_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea) [Diminished Capacity](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminished_capacity_in_United_States_law) (I don’t know if this particular case would fall under such law, but it sounds like a textbook example) One day, grasshopper, you will learn that nothing in this world is as black or white as you seem to think it. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/131 "2011-04-18T23:42:33Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > That Canadian law is disgusting. Abortions are now de facto available for anyone for a while after birth. Well that’s why Canada’s such a hellhole, and why so many Canadian women have a total blast getting third-trimester abortions. I’m a bit nauseous over some of these comments. It’s one thing to ask women to take prenatal vitamins, to stop drinking, to change their lifestyles for the health of their fetus and future child. But they’re supposed to overcome suicidal depression for the sake of the children? And this shouldn’t be considered because women might then say ‘If I can’t get an abortion, I’ll kill myself’ and no one will know if they mean it? Disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/132 "2011-04-19T01:00:50Z")
Nothing like accusations of having a position that is “stunning”, a grotesque waste of time, and disgusting to aid in a great debate. Now I recall why I swore not to become involved in any abortion thread here. Which is weird because this case isn’t about abortion. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/133 "2011-04-19T02:11:34Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Nothing like accusations of having a position that is “stunning”, a grotesque waste of time, and disgusting to aid in a great debate. Now I recall why I swore not to become involved in any abortion thread here. Which is weird because this case isn’t about abortion. It’s not? Because that seems to be the bulk of the link in the OP. > [@](#): > > “This case has huge implications for pregnant women, not only in Indiana but across the country,” said Alexa Kolbi-Molinas, a lawyer with the American Civil Liberties Union. > > “If we allowed the state to put a woman in jail for anything that could pose a risk to her pregnancy, there would be nothing to stop the police putting in jail a woman who has a drink of wine or who smokes. So where do you draw the line?” Perhaps if she could have obtained a legal abortion (though I still can’t find information on how far along she was in her pregnancy) she would have opted for that over attempted suicide. Maybe the shame of being abandoned was enough to drive her to it, anyway, without the possibility of being a single mother. A pity no one clued her into the traditional American method of falling down the stairs. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/134 "2011-04-19T06:54:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Based on your apparent understanding of the Christian faith, it would seem impossible for Christians to participate in any functioning society. How could a society even have a justice system? > … > And so perhaps your understanding of the meaning of the passages you quoted is flawed. Yes, the tendency of certain social liberals to claim that Christianity teaches us never to judge is…annoying. I suppose a case could be made that Jesus really meant that _and that it is proof he was mad,_ but that’s…worrying. > [@WhyNot](#): > > In law, bringing a suit is Justice. Ignoring a crime is Mercy. Investigating and deciding that, while technically a law may have taken place, no good will come of bringing a lawsuit is…well, I don’t have a word for it. But it happens, and it \*should \*have happened in this case, given only the information we have in front of us at this time. The Tiferet place of law, whatever you’d call it. Once again, philosophical thought trumps easy simplicity. > [@wmfellows](#): > > I have to say I was utterly stunned to read a prosecutor thinks this is a good use of state resources or that it makes any sense to punish a woman for having attempted suicide and possibly for having provoked the death of her infant. > > Really quite stunning. > > Even more stunning, that there are defenders for this grotesque mis-allocation of time and resources. > [@Hamlet](#): > > Nothing like accusations of having a position that is “stunning”, a grotesque waste of time, and disgusting to aid in a great debate. Now I recall why I swore not to become involved in any abortion thread here. Which is weird because this case isn’t about abortion. Piffle. It’s outrageous, we are outraged. I suppose you want a serious-minded great debate on whether gingers have souls next. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > > [@Malthus](#): > > > > It’s lesser responsibility, not no responsibility. The effect is to limit imprisionment to no more than five years. > > In other words, make it into a trivial misdemenor because that’s just the maximum sentence. Five years is not a misdemeanor sentence, unless you’re in Elfland or something. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/135 "2011-04-19T07:13:38Z")
For those who need further explication on why using the law in this fashion to punish actions taken by a pregnant woman, the [ACLU’s Memorandum in Support of the Motion to Dismiss](http://www.aclu.org/files/assets/2011-03-30_-_Shuai_-_Memorandum_in_Support_of_Motion_to_Dismiss.pdf) (pdf link) the charges against Ms. Shuai are illustrative. The three main issues: - The language of laws regarding injury to pregnant woman that causes the death of the fetus she’s carrying makes it clear that they were designed to punish third parties who assault pregnant women (with or without intent to harm the fetus) not the women themselves. - Using criminal law to punish a pregnant woman for things that she did/did not do (but should have) during her pregnancy based on pregnancy outcomes is both discriminatory and sets a horrible precedent of both unconstitutionally invasive monitoring of pregnant women (especially those in less than ideal home situations or those with any history of potentially complicating illness), It also sets the stage for an abrogation of doctor/patient confidentiality for pregnant women and de facto criminalization of medical issues that often cannot be traced to any particular precipitating event/circumstance - In this particular case, Ms. Shuai’s actions upon admission to the hospital would indicate that she was absolutely in a mentally resolute state upon admission, but had _protective_, not destructive intent toward the child, as shown in her agreement (after several days of treatment) to a c-section delivery and in her demeanor toward the child once born. It’s a lengthy read, but worthwhile to get a handle on the issues of using existing law in this fashion. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/136 "2011-04-19T08:03:38Z")
If there were a few things you could prove it would be ok by me to charge her for murder: 1. There was no (or minimal) risk to herself in taking the rat poison 2. She knew that the rat poison was going kill her baby while being safe for herself 3. She wanted to get rid of the baby 4. The rat poison can be proven to have killed the baby. 5. She was “sane” when she took the poison At 33 weeks the baby is viable (and presumably this was a healthy, normal baby) so any act the deliberatly causes its death should come in for “punishment” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/137 "2011-04-19T11:02:09Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Does that include post-viability or late term abortions (with the usual exceptions)? If you feel laws outlawing abortion in the third trimester should not be enforced, I can understand how you would conclude it is none of the state’s business. But if this suicide attempt happened in the post viability/third trimester, I don’t necessarily have a problem with the idea that it is no longer her choice. Well, we’ll just have to disagree on this point. > [@](#): > > Again, if she’s guilty but mentally ill, we likely agree how this case should be handled. I’m not conceding that’s she’s guilty of anything. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/138 "2011-04-19T11:17:03Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Nothing like accusations of having a position that is “stunning”, a grotesque waste of time, and disgusting to aid in a great debate. Now I recall why I swore not to become involved in any abortion thread here. Which is weird because this case isn’t about abortion. It would seem to me that taking the position that a woman who tried to commit suicide must be prosecuted for murder (I do believe a capital crime in the US) would normally require a strong constitution so as not to be put off when people reasonably observe that prosecution of post-suicide attempts is a grotesque waste of state resources. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/139 "2011-04-19T13:25:20Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > - The language of laws regarding injury to pregnant woman that causes the death of the fetus she’s carrying makes it clear that they were designed to punish third parties who assault pregnant women (with or without intent to harm the fetus) not the women themselves. Disagree. If the legislature meant to include that exception, they could have easily made the language explicit. > [@](#): > > - Using criminal law to punish a pregnant woman for things that she did/did not do (but should have) during her pregnancy based on pregnancy outcomes is both discriminatory… Not discriminatory in a way that violates Due Process or Equal Protection. Obviously it’s “discriminatory” in a sense. But every law is “discriminatory” in that it discriminates between two classes of persons in some way. > [@](#): > > …and sets a horrible precedent of both unconstitutionally invasive monitoring of pregnant women (especially those in less than ideal home situations or those with any history of potentially complicating illness), Then we can address the invasive monitoring if and when it happens. > [@](#): > > It also sets the stage for an abrogation of doctor/patient confidentiality for pregnant women and de facto criminalization of medical issues that often cannot be traced to any particular precipitating event/circumstance Then we can address the abrogation of the privilege if and when it happens. > [@](#): > > - In this particular case, Ms. Shuai’s actions upon admission to the hospital would indicate that she was absolutely in a mentally resolute state upon admission, but had _protective_, not destructive intent toward the child, as shown in her agreement (after several days of treatment) to a c-section delivery and in her demeanor toward the child once born. That’s a good argument to make. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530/140 "2011-04-19T13:39:24Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m not conceding that’s she’s guilty of anything. Do you concede that she took poison intending to end her life, and that she did so within the third trimester of her pregnancy? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-who-attempted-suicide-while-pregnant-is-accused-of-murder/578530.md?page=8)