# Woman's Right to Choose - What? When?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womans-right-to-choose-what-when/328753
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [October 31, 2005, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womans-right-to-choose-what-when/328753 "2005-10-31T17:41:08Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2005, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womans-right-to-choose-what-when/328753/41 "2005-11-03T11:56:14Z")
> [@lonesome loser](#):
>
> I myself do not believe in abortion.
>
> I also don’t believe the government has any right telling a woman she has to have that baby.
>
> Once they can decide who is to born, how long before they try to decide who must die?
That last – and I contend this is of extreme importance – is precisely one of the reasons Justice O’Connor said guided her decision to _permit_ women to make their own choices regarding reproduction.
Consider: If you give the State the power to force women to reproduce (and that’s exactly what anti-choice laws would do), you’re giving the State the precedent that could theoretically give them the power over who lives and who dies.
Your argument, rather than strengthens your position, actually strongly validates the pro-choice side, in which not the _government_ but the _mother_ gets to decide if she wants to bear a child or not.
---
### Author:  [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2005, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womans-right-to-choose-what-when/328753/42 "2005-11-03T11:57:17Z")
> [@ambushed](#):
>
> That last – and I contend this is of extreme importance – is precisely one of the reasons Justice O’Connor said guided her decision to _permit_ women to make their own choices regarding reproduction.
>
> Consider: If you give the State the power to force women to reproduce (and that’s exactly what anti-choice laws would do), you’re giving the State the precedent that could theoretically give them the power over who lives and who dies.
>
> Your argument, rather than strengthens your position, actually strongly validates the pro-choice side, in which not the _government_ but the _mother_ gets to decide if she wants to bear a child or not.
Oops! Sorry, that’s exactly what you were saying! What I :wally I am!
Please go about your business…
---
### Author:  [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2005, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womans-right-to-choose-what-when/328753/43 "2005-11-03T17:33:15Z")
> [@scotandrsn](#):
>
> What was your point in this post, exactly?
_Mea Culpa_. I did something I hate when others do it. I was busy and couldn’t reply properly so I cited google. I hate that and promise myself I will never do it again. It’s intellectually dishonest and lazy and I should have waited to post until I had time.
> [@](#):
>
> I believe that whatever forces gave women the power to bear children also gave them the wisdom to make sound decisions about it.
The “forces” that gave women the ability to bear children also gave them the ability to do harm. If you think a [5 year old](http://www.snopes.com/pregnant/medina.asp) could make a sound decision on on an elective surgery, then you and I disagree. Biology did not give a human female the ability to chose to abort an unwanted child. Medicaltechnology and the law did that. The law states that the woman has the sole **right** to her body with regard to abortion. It doesn’t say she has more wisdom. That right seems to currentlybe based on an arbitrary “undue burden”. Again, not wisdom. A child cannot have an elective surgery, cosmetic or otherwise, without the conent of the parents. There is no inherent right to ones own body. Even abortion has resitrictions.
Technology gave women the ability to abort _despite_ biologie’s wishes. Just as it gave a person the ability to increase thier breast size from an A to DD in a few hours. It does not bestow an extra inherent powers on the woman. Technology also gave humans the ability to fly. A female cannot spontaniously abort and more than a person jump of a cliff and flap his arms real fast and not expect to get hurt or die.
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### Author:  [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2005, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womans-right-to-choose-what-when/328753/44 "2005-11-03T18:37:16Z")
**AFAIKnow** , I think you underestimate the history of abortion. Abortion is about as old as humanity itself. The only thing that has changed is the safety.
Anyway, you said it yousefl. “There is no inherent right to your own body”. This is what we are afraid of. We are afraid of losing our humanity because we are women and prone to getting pregnant.
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### Author:  [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2005, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womans-right-to-choose-what-when/328753/45 "2005-11-03T18:54:45Z")
> [@even sven](#):
>
> **AFAIKnow** , I think you underestimate the history of abortion. Abortion is about as old as humanity itself. The **only thing that has changed is the safety**.
_Non sequitur_. Abortion rights change almost daily. Tell a woman in Saudi Arabia the only thing she gas to worry about is technological safety.
And I am pretty sure “flying” has been around well before Icarus’ time. Concept and will does not = power.
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### Author:  [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2005, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womans-right-to-choose-what-when/328753/46 "2005-11-03T19:09:16Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#):
>
> That’s what I always hear when some group does bad things; the military, Catholic priests, “pro-lifers”; it’s alway “just a small minority”. I don’t buy it.
You forgot the Jews, blacks, and Irish.
Regards,
Shodan
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### Author:  [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2005, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womans-right-to-choose-what-when/328753/47 "2005-11-03T19:54:45Z")
> [@ambushed](#):
>
> Consider: If you give the State the power to force women to reproduce (and that’s exactly what anti-choice laws would do)…
Good grief. So in your mind, not only do anti-abortion laws _force women to have sex_, they also _force women to conceive and bear the child to term_.
Let’s see. [What’s the name for that type of argument again?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man)
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2005, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womans-right-to-choose-what-when/328753/48 "2005-11-03T19:56:11Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> You forgot the Jews, blacks, and Irish.
>
> Regards,
> Shodan
Inheriting a label is not the same as choosing one. It also helps if they actually _do_ what they are accused of.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2005, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womans-right-to-choose-what-when/328753/49 "2005-11-03T20:07:00Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Are there any reasonable restrictions that the Pro-Choice people will accept?
There is no such thing as a “reasonable restriction” on reproductive rights.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2005, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womans-right-to-choose-what-when/328753/50 "2005-11-03T20:09:42Z")
> [@JThunder](#):
>
> Good grief. So in your mind, not only do anti-abortion laws _force women to have sex_, they also _force women to conceive and bear the child to term_.
>
> Let’s see. [What’s the name for that type of argument again?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man)
Conception alone is not reproduction. The government has no right to force a woman to have a baby against her will. Period.
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### Author:  [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2005, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womans-right-to-choose-what-when/328753/51 "2005-11-03T20:30:08Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#):
>
> Conception alone is not reproduction. The government has no right to force a woman to have a baby against her will. Period.
That’s beside the point. The claim is that anti-abortion laws will **force** to reproduce, which is just patently absurd.
I’m sure that some pro-choicers would LOVE to claim that women will be forced to strip down and have sex with men until they conceive, and then bear those children to term. By all means, let us portray anti-abortion legislation in the most heinous, most extreme way possible. [After all, why bother with accuracy, as long as the rhetoric achieves its desired goal?](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/040528.html)
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### Author:  [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2005, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womans-right-to-choose-what-when/328753/52 "2005-11-03T20:34:11Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#):
>
> Conception alone is not reproduction.
It’s as important in the process as any. I don’t think he ever said that. Maybe you should continue reading what you quoted to see what he actually said. :dubious:
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2005, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womans-right-to-choose-what-when/328753/53 "2005-11-03T20:39:16Z")
> [@AFAIKnow](#):
>
> It’s as important in the process as any. I don’t think he ever said that. Maybe you should continue reading what you quoted to see what he actually said. :dubious:
It’s insufficient to the process. There is nothing unreasonable about saying that forcing a woman to carry an unwanted pregnancy is forcing her to reproduce. Of course it is. If she gets an abortion, she has _not_ reproduced.
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### Author:  [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2005, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womans-right-to-choose-what-when/328753/54 "2005-11-03T20:41:45Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#):
>
> Inheriting a label is not the same as choosing one. It also helps if they actually _do_ what they are accused of.
I don’t know what you mean by the first sentence. If you are suggesting that pro-lifers chose to be labelled by your ridiculous insults, you still aren’t making any sense.
The second sentence actually ascends to the dizzy heights of mere logical fallacy. You have produced no evidence that all pro-lifers consider women only as walking wombs, or murder them, or whatever your drivel was. You can’t; no such evidence exists. Pro-lifers are not murderers merely by membership in the group any more than all blacks are drug-addicted street criminals because some are. Therefore your statements are as bigoted and stupid as all such statements are.
So stop making them.
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### Author:  [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2005, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womans-right-to-choose-what-when/328753/55 "2005-11-03T22:38:04Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#):
>
> Conception alone is not reproduction. The government has no right to force a woman to have a baby against her will. Period.
So let’s say a 10 year old get’s pregnant , who should say …
The 10 year old’s doctor? What if she doesn’t have one? Who should decide where she should go for medical help?
Shouldn’t her parents have some say in the matter even though she may be very, very hesitant to have them find out?
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2005, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womans-right-to-choose-what-when/328753/56 "2005-11-03T22:49:37Z")
> [@What the .... ?!?!](#):
>
> So let’s say a 10 year old get’s pregnant , who should say …
> The 10 year old’s doctor? What if she doesn’t have one? Who should decide where she should go for medical help?
>
> Shouldn’t her parents have some say in the matter even though she may be very, very hesitant to have them find out?
And what if they respond by disowning , abusing or even killing her ? They can’t require her to get a tattoo or an brand or sex change operation, so why can they force her to carry a fetus to term, with the lifetime consequences involved ?
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### Author:  [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2005, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womans-right-to-choose-what-when/328753/57 "2005-11-03T23:00:18Z")
> [@What the .... ?!?!](#):
>
> Shouldn’t her parents have some say in the matter even though she may be very, very hesitant to have them find out?
First, I would like to say that if a 10 yo gets pregnant, someone has already failed her. Catastrophically.
Telling her parents would depend, to me, entirely on circumstances. Obviously, if she wants to keep it, her parents will have to know at some point.
If she wants to abort, it’s tricky. I believe carrying a pregnancy to term for a young woman of that age is much riskier than for a 16 yo. I honestly believe the girl should be encouraged to have an abortion.
I think it would have to be case-by-case. I can’t make any blanket statement other than “10 yo shouldn’t be pregnant, dammit.”
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### Author:  [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2005, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womans-right-to-choose-what-when/328753/58 "2005-11-03T23:11:18Z")
> [@What the .... ?!?!](#):
>
> So let’s say a 10 year old get’s pregnant , who should say …
> The 10 year old’s doctor? What if she doesn’t have one? Who should decide where she should go for medical help?
>
> Shouldn’t her parents have some say in the matter even though she may be very, very hesitant to have them find out?
And if the ten year old’s father raped her and that is how the conception occurred. And her mother doesn’t want to face up to the sexual abuse in the house. Should her parents still get a say in what happens?
Its scary, but a lot of young teens that get pregnant don’t live in supportive environments. Minnesota has a parental notification law. It has a provision for the court to waive the requirement. I’m fine with that to say - age 16 or somewhere in there - provided that the judges are carefully screened - i.e. no one opposed to abortion on principle should be evaluating cases. A ten year old DOES need an adult to figure out what in the hell is going on in their life - but the appropriate adult for a pregnant ten year old may not be her own parents. It may be a social worker, a school counselor, a teacher. Before the age of 18 the need for adult involvment diminishes. There isn’t really any difference between a seventeen year eleven month old pregnant teen and one two days past her eighteenth birthday. I personally think that parental notification laws should stop at the same point that any statutory rape guidelines come into effect. i.e. if a 14 year old can have sex with her 16 year old boyfriend legally - she should be entitled to make her own decisions on abortion.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2005, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womans-right-to-choose-what-when/328753/59 "2005-11-03T23:12:07Z")
> [@What the .... ?!?!](#):
>
> So let’s say a 10 year old get’s pregnant , who should say …
> The 10 year old’s doctor? What if she doesn’t have one? Who should decide where she should go for medical help?
She should. Any hospital or clinic she can get to should be able to get her some assistance and counselling.
> [@](#):
>
> Shouldn’t her parents have some say in the matter even though she may be very, very hesitant to have them find out?
No. the parents should have no say in the matter. It’s not their body. It’s not their choice…and that’s without even raising the possibility of abuse. If a ten year old is pregnant, the parents are probably unfit anyway.
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### Author:  [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2005, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womans-right-to-choose-what-when/328753/60 "2005-11-03T23:48:13Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#):
>
> And what if they respond by disowning , abusing or even killing her ? They can’t require her to get a tattoo or an brand or sex change operation, so why can they force her to carry a fetus to term, with the lifetime consequences involved ?
So the possibility that things could get even worse negates any parental responsibility?
Maybe society should step in and remove children from poor inner city one parent families without cause because of what could happen.
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