OK, amendment noted. I still have the same question.
Again, I don’t understand the logic here. It seems to be a qualifier that is arbitrary. I don’t see why the “discrete” nature of a given procedure changes any of the “trauma” possible from how it is handled. Suppose abortions took a week to complete. Would that change your position? Why?
I think you are answering my question. There are some forms of care that are by definition “right”; parental interference would by definition be wrong. I just don’t agree. Nothing is always right or always wrong (again, if I understand your position).
But do you concede that children, despite an immediate “certainty,” quite often make bad choices, ones they regret later? How do you reconcile that with your position? Isn’t it a parent’s job to help their child make the appropriate decision, as they see it (short of abuse)?
It’s not so freaking hard. Do I want a child or don’t I? Most people know the answer pretty clearly. The most common emotion reported after an abortion is “relief.”
Get real. It is a very freaking hard decision, a notion many pro-choice people have conceded on this very board. And children’s judgment is not fully developed, a fact that is even supported by science. If you want to pretend this is a black-and-white issue for most people, feel free. I happen to think that’s a ridiculous position.
And however common a given emotion is after abortion, it’s not the only possible reaction. Many have regretted their decision. So, what makes you more qualified than a parent to determine what the outcome would be for that parent’s child?
You might not believe that minors are competent to make any decision this difficult , but other issues come up. Let’s say we have a pregnant 14 year old. She’s not competent to decide on her own to have an abortion. Does she also need her parent’s consent to remain pregnant? If she does, then her parents can force her to have an abortion. If she doesn’t, then she’s being allowed to decide based on what the decision is, not based on her own competence. If she chooses to give birth, whose consent is needed for medical treatment? Once she gives birth, do her parents decide whether she surrenders the baby for adoption or not? Who consents to medical treatment for the baby- the 14 year old mother who couldn’t consent to her own abortion 7 or 8 months ago or her parents? That’s the other big difference between abortion and other elective medical procedures- there isn’t another situation where the inability to consent to medical treatment today in itself will result in the 14 year old gaining the ability to make all sorts of decisions for another person.
The reason people want laws to enforce parental notification of abortion is that the parent won’t find out indirectly (at least, it’s not likely). It’s an attempt to counter the inconspicuous nature of the abortion procedure. It doesn’t make sense for people to want a law to enforce parental notification of a kidney transplant. The parent will already know if their 10 yo is in the hospital for a week. Trying to keep things private only works if it’s something that can be kept private at all. Shaving your head? Hard to keep that one a secret. Shaving your legs? Yeah, you can hide that with slacks. Outpatient procedure that takes an hour and costs a couple hundred bucks? You can hide that. Inpatient procedure that takes a month and costs a couple hundred thousand? Not so much.
The desire to keep an abortion secret wouldn’t be an issue if not for the ability to keep it secret. The desire to keep counseling secret wouldn’t be an issue if not for the ability to keep it secret. When it can be kept secret, it should. When it can’t, there’s no point in talking about whether it can.
Care that is sought by a minor and given by a doctor is more likely, in my opinion, to be right than not.
So, under what circumstances is an elective abortion right?
I concede that people quite often make bad choices, ones they regret later. Do you concede that?
If the girl wants her parents’ input, she’ll seek it. Because, again, of the nature of the procedure where something will happen no matter what, a choice has to be made. She will seek input from any source she respects. She should not be forced to seek any input from any source she doesn’t want because it is unacceptable to force people to have medical procedures against their will. Unacceptable and disgusting and any other Really Bad Word that can be thrown in here.
I would be very upset should a 10 yo choose to undergo childbirth instead of having an abortion. But I am not going to support any idea that she should be strapped down and brutally assaulted just so I get to feel better about her prospects.
None of the women I’ve ever known to have had abortions were at all traumatized by them, with one exception. One friend had severe complications that forced her into abortion to save her own life. She felt awful about it, but it wasn’t a free choice. Her birth control failed, so it wasn’t a wanted pregnancy, but she wanted to be able to choose, and she couldn’t. That was real, devastating, trauma.
(Granted, I undoubtedly know lots of women who have had abortions and I don’t know it. It’s a very common procedure and not much talked about, and the more traumatizing she found it, the less likely she is to bring it up in casual conversation!)
It’s always a parent’s job to help a child make an appropriate decision. One problem that I see with abortion (and other reproductive issues) is that in many cases, even leaving out abuse, the parent will be (at least in effect) making the decision, not helping with it. If abortion and other reproductive services are treated exactly as other medical procedures are, the child’s consent is neither necessary nor sufficient. Just as my consent was enough for my 14 year old son’s appendectomy (in fact, no one asked his opinion), so would my consent be enough for my 14 year old daughter’s abortion. I would be making the decision, not helping her make it. If she could consent to the abortion or pre-natal care herself but I had to be notified before the services took place, I’m sure I could pressure her into doing what I wanted - meaning that I am in effect making the decision.
40% of American women under 40 have had an abortion. What you are going to do in the event of an unplanned pregnancy is an everyday reality that all women have to think about. Try asking the women around you if they have a plan for unwanted pregnancy- Or just trust me. They do. Anyone who has ever been a week late has spent at least a week thinking long and hard about this subject. When it does come up, it’s usually a pretty straightforward decision.
Nobody wants an abortion. Nobody doesn’t wish it hadn’t come to that. But once it’s done, nearly everyone is sure that they have made the right decision. For most women, abortion isn’t a life shattering or even life changing event. It is simply one of the tricky parts of being a woman.
I’m not, but the child (or, far more likely, teenager) is, of course.
Which situation do you honestly think will lead to more of this gut-wrenching regret- making your own abortion decision or being forced in to one? Do you really think anyone anywhere will turn eighteen and think “Well, I wanted an abortion because I despise kids, want to be a rocket scientist, don’t want the burden of single motherhood, didn’t want to put my body at risk of things like diabetes, and don’t want to spend my early life living in a crappy apartment and earning money to support a baby, but my mom made me have this kid when I was twelve. I sure am glad I’m the mom of a six year old!”?
I’m sorry, but I can’t see this going anywhere. We’re circling the same track over and over. I see it as axiomatic that parents get to exert influence over their children for important, life-altering decisions. Others see it as axiomatic that they should not. I absolutely see it as inarguable that a child’s ability to make sound decisions is not fully developed. That is an indisputable fact for me. And given that fact, how could it possibly be best to leave it up to the child?
It is a parent’s duty to help in such situations. Yes, there are abusive parents. But a parent’s influence in this situation is not, to me, a de facto instance of undue influence. For some in this thread, it is. It is more likely to me that a parent will help to guide a child to the decision that is best for that child. It is more likely for some that this will be immoral interference. We have some irreconcilible axioms here. I don’t see us working through this. Thanks for the feedback.
It’s the only number I could find on percentage of women who have had abortions. You can find a cite here and if you want some political balance you can also look here.
Generally, no, but I suppose there are circumstances where I would. The rule of thumb would be this, for me: the more important / critical the treatment is in ensuring the child’s well-being (e.g., imminent death would probably be one end of the spectrum), and the more it is consistent with a treatment approach that is virtually beyond dispute by experts, the more likely I am to say the parent’s consent can be set aside. The closer it is to the other end of that spectrum, the more I am inclined to say, the parents are in the best position to decide what is best.
I guess I have to hedge a little. I don’t believe an abortion is ever a moral choice, except, perhaps, in instances where the mother’s life is in grave and imminent danger (if such circumstances exist where abortion is the only remedy). But, if I take off my pro-lifer hat for a moment and consider only the fact that this is a legal procedure–why shouldn’t the parent be able to at least influence the process?
Anyway, if this is such a singular situation, permit counseling, the intervention of a judge–whatever–but don’t simply cut out the parents. I guess I don’t have an easy answer. I just don’t think the solution is to take parents out the equation completely. I suppose I am betraying my bias here–clearly, to me, a parent who influenced a child not to have an abortion has made the proper decision. I recognize, however, that permitting this influence wouldn’t guarantee that outcome. It would, however, help to ensure that I get a say in my child’s life at such a critical juncture.
See above.
You’re probably right. And I hope my previous post did not imply to you that I thought you weren’t being forthright or clear. These abortion threads never seem to move somebody from one camp to the other, but I guess we all hope that at least there are pieces of the debate where one side can see that the other side has a point. In this one, it seemed as if our “dueling axioms” were not going to permit even that. Thanks for keeping the discourse civil!
Yes, I would agree to the “prone to misreading” part.
I can accept that 43% of American women under 45 will have either a voluntary abortion or a miscarriage, but not that 40% of all American women have had a voluntary abortion.
First I’ll say that I agree with the bible on this point-- post-natal abortion should be legal until the age of 18.
Next, I must say that I have an issue with choice being only in the mother’s hands. My ex-wife is pro-choice and decided to have a child after we had said for 10 years that we would not have children. I must pay for at least 18 years for her choice to have that child. Its fine for her to want to keep the child, but I have no choice in supporting it without becoming a criminal.
Well, yeah, that’s not fair. And it’s also not fair that she could’ve chosen to have an abortion even if you’d wanted to keep the child. But that’s the way it is, and I’m not willing to give anyone else the power to decide whether or not a woman gives birth, even if it results in lots of unfair situations. Biology isn’t fair, either. If you really don’t want kids that badly, go get a vasectomy.
“24% of all pregnancies (excluding miscarriages) end in abortion.”
they also say that
“At current rates, about one in three American women will have had an abortion by the time she reaches age 45.”
Which is a bit different than 40% of all women having had abortions, but still shows that there are a hell of a lot of abortions going on, and it’s by no means a rare or unusual thing for women to deal with.
That is unfair. Personally, I think the father should be allowed to disavow all rights and responsibilities before, say, the third trimester. Afterwards - too bad, you took on the responsibility, live with it.
